My DMV nightmare

jas capitol2007jan.serendipityThumb My DMV nightmare My wallet disappeared, but that was nothing compared to the pain of trying to get a new driver’s license.

I quickly cancelled all my bank cards and then went into DMV to get a new driver’s license. My number was 208, they were serving customer #186. Hmmmm. Where else can you go and stand in line with 22 people ahead of you? Once through, DMV would not accept my identification papers for a new license. Favoring reasonable protections I can accept thier decision. I raced home and dug up my birth certificate. Back in DMV my new number was #259 and they were serving customer #241.

This time DMV denied my new license because another person named Jason Williams with the same birthday had traffic tickets in Alabama! Here is where the story gets worse.

All other information (middle name, SSN#, race, eye color, etc.) was not available to the DMV agent, so I was guilty until I proved my innocence. DMV said I had to get a letter clearing my name from the Alabama Public Safety Department and gave me a phone number. I went home and called the number only to get a maze of voicemail options. If I hit zero for an operator I was immediately disconnected. If I waited on the phone for someone to help I was immediately disconnected. I began choosing various voicemail options and found nothing but 10 minute long message machines that gave the addresses of Alabama DMV locations. This was no help to me because even if I wanted to fly to Alabama to clear my name I couldn’t get on a stupid flight because I have no drivers license. After giving 15 different DMV locations for me to visit the voicemail said “hit zero for an operator”. I hit zero and I was disconnected. I did this three separate times! The agency had made it impossible to talk to a real live person.

In desperation, I went to the Alabama website and found a host of local license re-admittance offices. I called the first one and got a dead end where no one answered the phone and with no option to leave a message. I called another city and got the same dead end. Finally, on the third city I got a person who sent me to the Fraud Unit. The Fraud Unit said they acknowledged that I was not the same Jason Williams in trouble in Alabama, but their office could not help me. The Fraud Unit transferred me to the Review Officer. Upon transfer the phone was disconnected. Luckily, I got the number in advance and called back directly. No one answered the phone at the Review Officer office and the line simply disconnected me. I kept calling back to have no one answer until it became 5:00 closing time in Alabama.

After three hours of trying to get my license renewed I am now starting day two. If no one in Alabama will answer the phone, I will be unable to get a drivers license. What a horrible system with a nation of 300 million people and a person with the same first/last name and birthday can invalidate everyone else with the same information without end. Heck, there are many Jason Williams’ in the NBA alone! Imagine all the Dave Smiths and Bob Jones’ who will get trapped in this system.

Having bureaucratic dead end phone systems is not unique to Alabama. When I call the Oregon Department of Revenue or Employment Department I often get disconnections. If I leave a voice message it is a gamble that someone will return my call. My half-day ordeal is just an everyday example of what taxpayers suffer with when they run into a bureaucracy that is not customer friendly, inefficient and hostile to the people they are supposed to serve.

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Posted by at 08:27 | Posted in Measure 37 | 72 Comments |Email This Post Email This Post |Print This Post Print This Post
  • Rupert in Springfield

    Ahh yes, and of course somehow all the DMV’s are hooked up to collect on each others tickets as there is money to be made! The extra expense of adding a picture to the database forgone as it would eat into profits.

    Sure makes you glad the same clowns arent running health care. And they say insurance companies are greedy!

    • XYZ

      Federal vs State gov agency. I bet you could reach someone at the FBI and clear this up.

  • devietro

    Sounds nasty all around. I like the fact that Oregon can track Alabama traffic tickets enough to deny you your license but does NOT have the information to clear you.

    Ahh government in Action.

    • devietro

      I meant to add that your DMV nightmare does not sound that different than many of the stories I hear from people when they try and buy a gun and somebody with the same name OR A SIMILAR name has a felony conviction. Lets just say if your name is George Smith you can be expected to be delayed in purchasing a firearm from a dealer.

  • Bob

    Jason,

    Don’t worry dean will soon explain to you how the DMV works just fine. And that your anti-government sentiment is effecting your judgment. He’ll further advise you that driving is privilege and in most cases unnecessary with transit, biking, walking and telecommuting being better options.
    Have you considered not drving any more and reducing your carbon footprint?
    That said, I would suggest going back to the DMV and demand they give you your license. Maybe get that Lars guy on the phone while there.
    Maybe video tape your next visit.

    • Harry

      Bob,

      Have you been channeling dean? You are spot on, so much so that I almost spilled my coffee laughing. dean would be as funny as you, except for the fact that he seriously believes his crap.

  • Jason W.

    DMV Nightmare part II.

    I finally was able to reach someone in the Review Office this morning. It was funny because they couldn’t help me prove my innocence until I provided a copy of my driver’s license, which is what they are preventing me from getting.

    The Office couldn’t promise anything but they suggested I go back to Oregon DMV to get a driver’s license record. So I went back this morning only to discover that the local office is closed until 9:00am on Wednesdays. Oh the fun continues!!!!!

  • Bob Mulroy

    Good times!

    I remember my last Orwellian experience with the DMV. My son was getting his learner’s permit, and his birth certificate had a small tear in it. While several officials inspected it for “acceptability,” a dozen citizens of Mexico got served by simply flashing their Matricula Consular cards!

    One has to wonder how far we are from a bloody revolution.

  • Jeff

    And these people want government run health care….

  • Jason W.

    DMV Nightmare Part III

    I just got back from DMV. When I arrived at 9:00am there was 18 people standing outside waiting for it to open. I waited in line and then put in my request for a driver’s record (so I can send it back to Alabama to clear my name). The bad news was that a driver’s record request may take up to 3 days to arrive by mail. The good news is that they can fax it from Salem, but it would not be sent until the next day.

    Being that there are important things I cannot do right now w/o a license until I get the record, I asked if there was any document that the DMV could print today that features my basic info (DL#, SNN#). Unfortunately there was not.

    Now I wait until tomorrow. Oh the fun continues.

    (P.S. I must state that even though the system is terribly flawed and I feel victimized by the process, all the agents I have talked to have been nice. They too are victims of a system that sets them up for failure.)

  • Steve

    Have you tried Ted?
    I’m sure the governor would be willing to interviene on your behalf.

    Now that’s funny.

  • Allen

    Silly you!

    Next time select the “Speak Spanish” option and real people (with Mexican accents) will answer. They may also scold you for cheating but you do get through and fast.

    I have learned to start off in Spanish and then switch to English. Most never catch the change.

    Gotta think like an Illegal Alien and work with the system.

  • dean

    OK..let’s start with personal responsibility. Your wallet “disappeared?” Really. That is amazing in and of itself.

    You go to the DMV and you have 22 other taxpaying citizens ahead of you. Okay…how many staff did DMV have there? One? Five? Would you want them to have had 22 staff available, one for each customer? Now that would be an efficient use of our tax dollars wouldn’t it?

    You did not say how long you waited in line. Based on my own recent experiences, I would bet less than 20 minutes. But never mind. You failed to bring the proper identification. That is DMV’s fault? Didn’t we just have conservatives screaming about illegal aliens getting driver’s liscences based on lax ID requirements?

    So you go back home, get your ID, come back and now you are 18th in line. You expected to butt to the front based on your own earlier mistake?

    And after all that it sounds like the real problem is with Alabama’s sloppy record keeping, not Oregons.

    And now you go back to the office and find it did not open until 9? And you blame who for that one? They did not have their hours posted the last 2 times you were there? You lost your phone and web connection as well as your wallet?

    I can’t believe this nonsense was even posted. Get over it and grow up.

    • devietro

      Jason never said he expected to cut in line the 2nd time he only said that waiting in line is boring nobody argues that.

      Also Jason works for efficiency in ALL government not just Oregon so the Alabama stuff if relavent. The issue is that Oregon has access to enough information to deny an application but not enough to clear that denial.

    • Rupert in Springfield

      Dean – Come on, at the crux of it this entire thing isn’t about him not having ID sufficient to get reinstated. It has zero to do with that

      This whole thing its about government screwing up because they are soooooo scared someone will move and not pay a damn ticket.

      The idea that state governments can interconnect to such an extent that they will collect tickets for each other, but cant be bothered to attach a picture to the database or even call to get one is about as strong an indictment as one could find for the ruthless greed with which they operate. I can not believe you wont admit that in this instance. I mean come on, at some point government does something seriously wrong, this is definitely one of those times.

    • Gale

      Please do not insult dean or anyone else who takes the time to comment on Catalyst. The great thing about Catalyst is that we keep our conversations civil.

      • Jason W.

        Harry’s comment was deleted.

      • Harry

        Got it, Gale.

        ———
        I can’t believe this nonsense was even posted. Get over it and grow up.
        #10 dean on 2008-02-27 11:46 (Reply)
        ———-

        dean is civil indeed.

    • CRAWDUDE

      4 other tax paying citizens and 18 illegal alien non-tax paying people criminally residing in this country……

      • rural resident

        Do you have some evidence for this statement?

        • CRAWDUDE

          Evidences, we don’t need no stinking evidences!

          • Anonymous

            Now you sound like a liberal

    • Anonymous

      Only a complete ***** could defend the DMV as being anything but the ultimate example of American bureaucracy gone wrong. You are a parody of yourself.

  • jon

    This scares me because my name is Jon Williams. You should be innocent until proven guilty. DMV should be required to prove that an out of state record is in fact identical to your record before they deny you.

    Since the FBI NCIC query standard is Firstname, Lastname, DOB, Race, Gender, the DMV should be required to prove that “Jason Williams” is you, based on those 5 items. Using only Firstname, Lastname, and DOB should not be considered enough proof.

  • Kathryn Hickok

    Maybe the simplest way to bypass the bureaucracy at this point would be for Jason Williams in Alabama to step up and please pay his traffic ticket so Jason Williams in Oregon can get his license! If you’re out there, Mr. Williams….

  • Steve Buckstein

    If Jason is to be faulted for anything, it’s for not spending all his waking hours the last ten years working to privatize the DMV. You can be sure that if driver’s license services were provided in a competitive market, he wouldn’t have to wait in a 22 person line just to find out the clerk couldn’t help him.

    Just imagine what the lines would be like if state government monopolized banking, or food purchasing. Can we say USSR, boys and girls?

    Even if Oregon state government sets the rules for issuing licenses, it doesn’t have to actually run the process. There are many existing businesses that could perform that task more efficiently, quicker and with better customer service.

    Cascade Policy Institute published a proposal to privatize the DMV in 1997. My only regret is that it was not adopted in time for Jason to avoid his current situation. But it’s not too late to adopt it in time to save countless others from meeting the same fate.

    Read “Privatize the Oregon DMV” at http://www.cascadepolicy.org/bgc/dmv.htm and then, if you agree, do what you can to see it enacted. The time and frustration you save may be your own.

    • jon

      Privatization of government services isn’t necessarily a good thing. When government services are privatized, such as in defense related contracting, then the people cannot vote later to remove the government services because it would mean a huge loss in jobs.

      Privatization is the governments method for permanently establishing programs which cannot be later removed. If we were to stop the Iraq war today, it would mean the loss of millions of jobs, and we all know that cannot be allowed.

      • Steve Buckstein

        Jon, privatization doesn’t make it harder to remove government services. Jobs would be lost in any case, whether the service is run by private employees or government ones.

        The difference is that if a private contractor is doing a poor job, it can (and should) lose the contract. Its employees might lose their jobs, but another company then gains jobs if it can fulfill the contract better.

    • Harry

      “Just imagine what the lines would be like if state government monopolized banking, or food purchasing. Can we say USSR, boys and girls?”
      ——–

      Having lived in he Communist Block, I do say that the DMV resembles their system much more than the USPS nowadays. Going postal should be replaced with going moto.

      “Even if Oregon state government sets the rules for issuing licenses, it doesn’t have to actually run the process. There are many existing businesses that could perform that task more efficiently, quicker and with better customer service.”
      ———-

      The state tells me what date I can change over to studded tires, but they let Les Schwab do the work. Same could be done here. With much better results for everybody. Except for the public unions and their goons, and the minions who are supported by their political donations.

      • dean

        Harry…I accept your apology. Just kidding.

        Rupert…I don’t buy the “greed” argument. Some clerk at DMV is not benefitting from payment of a fine in Alabama. The same people (conservatives) who are always yelling rules are rules, the law is the law and so forth in this case are outraged that a DMV cleark did not take it upon themselves to violate the law and issue a license to someone who did not have the right documentation.

        Steve….one thing I am perplexed about, having lived in Oregon 30 years now, is that I recall the bad old days in the early 80s when a trip to DMV really was a day in H**l. But at one point, I think it was during the Goldschmidt Administration, a new administrator was put in charge of DMV and the situation changed very quickly. For one thing, you can get your car tags direcly from the DEQ testing center, where you used to have to go there, then to DMV and face the Vogons.

        The few times I have had to go to DMV over the past number of years, I don’t think I have spent more than 20 minutes waiting for my number to be called. That includes taking my son in for his drivers permit (eek) last fall. And I have always had very polite, helpful service. I can’t believe I am the only one with this experience. Maybe all your readers need to go to the Gresham DMV.

        Back to the original post. I do sympathize on the Alabama name mix up. People trying to board planes have been sidetracked because their names are on terorist watch lists. We think we live in an instant communication world, but this is not always the case.

        All the other points Jason makes were his own doing, not the fault of bureaucracy, and had we privatized the DMV he could have ended up in exactly the same boat. I think you need to come up with more eggregious examples if you want to bash the DMV in order to push privitization.

        And there are any number of private busneses who subject their customer to far longer waits than the DMV in any case.

        • Steve Buckstein

          “For one thing, you can get your car tags directly from the DEQ testing center…”

          Dean, I’ll just say that getting your tags now at the DEQ testing center is not an improvement from the standpoint that we shouldn’t have to go to the testing center in the first place.

          Most modern cars emit so little pollution, compared to older cars, that it’s a waste of time to force us all into this additional government monopoly system.

          The last time I went to the DEQ, it was obvious which car in line was the polluter. It was belching such a foul smelling concoction that the attendant had to ask the driver to get out of line and leave so as not to sicken the rest of us having to breath the fumes.

          Catching gross polluters is one thing, but might be done in less intrusive ways that forcing all drivers to waste time and money going through the DEQ testing stations.

        • Rupert in Springfield

          Oh Good Lord Dean, come on.

          >I don’t buy the “greed” argument. Some clerk at DMV is not benefitting from payment of a fine in Alabama.

          I don’t either, I don’t know why you are bringing it up anyway since I never said that. I was speaking to government greed, and that is quite clear in my point. Bad straw man argument. Bad ….bad ….very bad straw man. You go to your room bad straw man, no dinner for you!

          >DMV cleark did not take it upon themselves to violate the law and issue a license to someone who did not have the right documentation.

          Uh, no, he did have the right documentation, DMV just simply has an incredibly poor database and should clearly be held accountable. This would be the case if it was an insurance company who denied a claim because someone with the same name hadn’t paid their bill.

          Oh wait, that would be different entirely, because in that case it would be a private company and you would be shouting from the ramparts waving a broken bourbon bottle calling for heads to roll.

          Quite frankly I don’t think even you believe what you are saying in this instance, I really think you are playing devils advocate at this point.

          If nothing else, this entire event makes me pretty glad my name is Rupert. Dean – I don’t know if your last name is something like Syzygy, if it is, great. If your last name is Jones or Smith, I would be a little worried. This whole thing could come back to bite you, in kind of a weird …. well… I guess instance of syzygy ( yes, that is an actual word, and no, I wasn’t poking fun at your name, I was just trying to have a little levity, I hope you can take it that way. )

  • Jason W.

    So it is the citizen’s fault that when the Alabama DMV says press zero for an operator that they disconnect you?

    So it is the citizen’s fault that various Alabama DMV offices do not answer their phones, nor even leave a message to make sure you called the right place?

    So it is the citizen’s fault if DMV can’t print a simple statement of basic information from the office you visited?

    So it is the citizen’s fault that that government provides no clear and simple process to remove yourself from being falsley cited (and that because there is no simple process the extra time it takes out of our public employees time in two different states somehow is a benefit to the employees?)

    I think government can do better.

  • cc

    I can’t help but think that dean gets all warm and fuzzy as he mentions (with caps, no less) the “Goldschmidt Administration”.

    That’s just eggregious!

    hehehe

    • dean

      Steve….maybe so on DEQ testing, but I have 12 and 23 year old vehicles (not counting my 5 year old bike). Not all of us can afford shiny new cars.

      My larger point…DMV reform….you did not experience it? Maybe I have been here longer than you. Trust me, it made a huge difference the one day every 2 years in my life I need to go there.

      Jason….your account included 3 events that were your errors, not those of the DMV (“disappeared” wallet, neglect in bringing the right papers, failure to check hours of operation before showing up). You also made an irrelevant description of your wait:

      “My number was 208, they were serving customer #186. Hmmmm. Where else can you go and stand in line with 22 people ahead of you? ”

      How about Safeway or Freddies? If you go to checkout and there are 22 people ahead of you, but 5 lanes open, that means there are really only 4 or 5 people ahead of you right? How many clerks were at the DMV? How long did you actually wait to tell your story to one? Those are the relevant details, not what number you had, don’t you agree?

      And perhaps you have not experienced phone option/waiting hell with any private companies, but I sure have. Its not a public vs private problem, its a bigness-smallness and competition problem. And private companies typically off shore their phone service to Bangalore India for heavens sake. If you “privitize” DMV you could as easily as not end up with a worse phone wait system, since you have no where else to turn in any case.

      And again, bottom line is that your problem was located in Alabama. Maybe that is the DMV (a poorly funded red state I might add) where Cascade Policy ought to go sell your privitization project.

      I have no reason to support or not support state management of our DMV. I have no relatives who work there, and I frankly don’t care if it gets privitized or not, as long as costs and waits don’t increase and offices don’t end up in Timbuktu. I just think your particular experience says nothing about the merits of privitization, and nothing about the efficiency or lack thereof of the OREGON DMV.

      Give us an empirical study of average DMV wait times, errors, etc. and compare these with privitized DMV services in some other state or nation if you want to make a case here.

      And CC…I don’t need to get warm and fuzzy over the Goldschmidt Administration. Last I checked we have had 3 more Democratic governors in a row since then, so no need for nostalgia here.

      • mike vego

        It is the lack of true competition, whether from government monopolies (DMV) or government sanctioned monopolies (Cable TV) that erode the “need” to be patron responsive. My experiences at Oregon DMV have ranged from mediocre to excellent (usually, to my mind, surprisingly, very good). Many companies that I deal with would benefit from their model.

  • Steve Buckstein

    “Not all of us can afford shiny new cars.”

    Dean, my car was 32 years old when I had the DEQ experience I mention above. One year older and it would have been exempt from this time-wasting exercise. I’ve never owned a “shiny new car” either.

    And, no, I did not experience the improvement you mention under “DMV reform.” Perhaps it only happened at the Gresham office as you suggest above. I went to the one at the Lloyd Center.

    If you don’t like privatization, perhaps you might like the reform made in New Zealand. When it’s equivalent of the DMV couldn’t justify two-year license renewals a few years ago, the government decided that licenses would be valid until (I believe) age 65 or some such age at which time they require retesting for eyesight.

    • dean

      Steve…to be clear, I have no reflexive opposition to privitization of government services wherever and whenever this can be shown to be less expensive and/or superior service. I also have no problem eliminating whatever service we (the majority) decide is no longer needed or wanted.

      I did go to the DMV at the Lloyd Center once. I don’t remember waiting in line more than a few minutes.

      Since we are mixing DEQ and DMV, Is it your belief that the free market would solve air pollution problems without government intervention? That does not seem to be happening in China by the way.

      • Steve Buckstein

        Dean, I’m not confident that the free market would solve air pollution problems without some enforcement mechanism (probably government in our current system). Pollution is a violation of others’ property right to clean air. It’s hard to define and protect property rights in air and water, so I understand why DEQ is charged with trying to keep the air clean. I just think the way it goes about it is way too costly, both in terms of what we are forced to pay in cash and the time we are forced to waste in those testing station lines. That’s where the free market could be employed to both keep the air clean, reduce our costs in time and money, and hopefully make a profit at the same time.

  • publius

    I guess the chickens coming home to roost. Thank your pals at OFIR, and anyone else who raised hell about increasing the requirements for obtaining a driver’s license.

    Or are these kinds of roadblocks okay, so long as they only target the eeevviiiilll brown people.

  • rural resident

    Steve B. … Car tags have to be renewed every two years, not individual driver’s licenses. My last license renewal was for eight years. For those who want to avoid trips to the DMV and waiting in lines to renew car tags, there is an internet renewal option. You just need a credit card.

    Jason W. … I agree that the link with Alabama is annoying and if somehad had shown a little initiative, probably could have been cleared up fairly easily with a phone call and a quick fax. However, I’m less sympathetic about having 22 people in front of you and having to wait. How long and loudly would you be complaining if you happened to walk into a DMV office that had four or five clerks “doing nothing” — even if it was the only time over a span of several hours that they hadn’t been busy? We’d all be hearing about the “government waste” from hiring all these “unnecessary people.”

    Also, there’s an interesting parallel between your episode and the conservative plea for tighter controls over voting. The Rs seem to want people to have to travel (sometimes long distances) to vote, and require them to bring all kinds of documentation. Imaging how many opportunities there would be to create similar “nightmares” in a situation that has greater civic importance.

    Dean … Good point about the length of hold times when one goes into “phone menu limbo.” This certainly isn’t limited to government; my longest, and most exasperating, waits have occurred with private firms.

    • Steve Buckstein

      rr, I think you’re correct on the eight year license renewals and two year tag renewals. But here in the Portland area (and in the Medford area) you can’t get your tags online, you have to sit in lines at the DEQ testing stations.

    • Chris McMullen

      I swear to god Dean, you must not have gotten hugged as a child or something. Do you really take yourself seriously?

      The last time I went to DEQ, it took an hour and a half to get tested. A group of about 50 card sat idling and/or starting and stopping the whole time. Nice pollution and waste of gas/time, eh Dean?

      If that’s you’re idea of government efficiency, it’s no wonder this state is such a mess.

    • Chris McMullen

      “…phone menu limbo.” This certainly isn’t limited to government; my longest, and most exasperating, waits have occurred with private firms.”

      Sorry if that’s your experience. But the fact is, you aren’t forced at the pointy of a gun to do business with a private company.

      You ever try to complain about service from a gummint agency? Often the manager is worse than the help.

      • rural resident

        That’s a silly thing to say. You mean that if I’m banking with ABC Bank and it fouls up my account, I can call XYZ Bank to solve the problem? Even if I want to move my account, I still have to clear up the initial problem. The same is true with other products and services. I may decide to do business with someone else later, as I’ve done when frustration leads to my changing phone companies or credit cards, for example. However, you can’t just let problems sit there. If your service isn’t working, or if someone claims you owe money when you don’t, you have to clean up the problem first.

        Nor do I agree that only with government agencies do you find managers who are worse than the front line folks. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren’t. This is true with private industry, too. It’s one thing to be anti-government, but being unrealistic makes you sound like a crank.

        • Chris McMullen

          I was hoping you’d get the gist of the argument without me having to explain it to you.

          The fact is, you don’t have to do business with a private company. Private companies fail all the time due to lousy customer service. You think Starbucks is successful by treating their customers like crap? And in the off-chanced they do treat you like crap, you can choose to never go there again. Consequently, they lose a lifetime customer.

          The same case can’t be made with gummint agencies. You are forced to accept their crap at the point of a gun.

          Got it now?

          • rural resident

            No, Chris, frankly I don’t. People still have to purchase most things from SOME private company, since most goods and services aren’t provided by government. Yes, you can elect to do business with someone else NEXT TIME. But you often still have to solve the current problem before making that decision. MY point is that you can’t simply avoid bad customer service by dealing with the private sector, which is what you are implying.

            Your assertion that customer service is only poor in the public sector is so far off base that it doesn’t deserve further comment. Hating all things government (until, of course, you need it) is one thing; being completely unrealistic about the level of service between public and private sectors is another.

          • Chris McMullen

            I’m curious as to where I stated that customer service is only poor in the public sector? Nice attempt at trying to put words in my mouth — smacks of desperation to me.

            No matter how hard you try to spin the argument, the fact is that one is forced at the point of a gun to deal with gummint agencies no matter how bad their service might be.

  • davidg

    Jason, a simple suggestion: try another office of DMV. See if you get the same story. You are not required to go to your most local DMV office – you can go to any one in the state. I have found that not all eyes of the bureaucracy read the rules the same way. And even if the rules are the same, you may find someone actually willing to proactively help you in a smaller office.

    Also, going to another office may shorten the line significantly. Offices in smaller towns tend to have shorter wait times. I have occasionally had no wait time in Corvallis.

    By the way, which DMV office have you been dealing with so far? I never want to go there.

    • Ethan

      For me, Corvallis has been a much worse experience than Newport or Klamath Falls. I will give you I have only been in the Newport and Klamath Falls DMV’s once each, but both times the waits were very short and I had no difficulties taking care of business. In Corvallis I have had to wait over an hour on multiple occasions. (I have however, been in there two or three times where the wait was only 20 minutes or so.)

      In response to trying different offices, I think that is a good idea if it is feasible. Also I have noticed that certain employees tend to make life much more difficult than others at the Corvallis branch. Maybe wait for a different person than the one who gave you trouble previously?

  • Dan Meek

    Yea, Jason, just drive on over to some other DMV office. Ooops.

  • William Neuhauser

    LOL!

    Hoisted by your own tax-cutting petards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard)! :-)

    • John Fairplay

      You do realize that no taxes in Oregon have been cut, right? That the State Budget is 20 percent larger the current biennium then the previous one? That the DMV budget is at a record high?

  • Jerry

    This whole mess is crazy. I do not blame Jason for being upset.
    DMV is a joke – no one is ever held accountable for their actions or inactions.
    It is a sad comment on government.

    • dean

      Jerry…in this specific instance, all government in general bashing aside, who would you hold acountable for what exactly? It seems to me Oregon DMV staff did its job under the law as written with the resources they had available to them.

      Jason’s story is at best about his own mistakes plus problems with the DMV services in the great state of Alabama. There must be better examples out there than this. Or how about trying actual data or analysis?

      For Rupert…up above…no I’m not just playing devil’s advocate in this case. I truly am having a hard time understanding Jason’s issue as anything more than petty griping and exagerrations with respect to his wait times.

      I take no offense at all at your humor. And yes, those with more common names are likely to have more trouble across the board, including terrorist watch lists stopping them from boarding planes, identity theft, and DMV issues. I don’t have a solution for these folks, do you?

      On the other hand, people with names like mine, long, multi-sylable, easy to mispell, have our own inconveniences to deal with. As Jimmy Carter famously said, “life is unfair.”

      Also, I don’t see how I used a “straw man” argument as it is generally understood, i.e. setting up a weak argument in order to knock it down. I did not set anything up, you did with your unsupported comment that Jason’s problems were caused by “government greed.” I just don’t see how “greed” is a factor here. Please explain.

      • Rupert in Springfield

        Explanation of how Deans argument was a straw man argument:

        I said the basic genesis of this entire thing was government greed. State governments being so scared someone will not pay a few parking tickets that they have linked together their DMV data base’s so as to collect these tickets for each other but somehow didn’t think maybe attaching the persons picture to the data base would be necessary to prevent this sort of thing.

        You constructed a straw man argument by saying it is hard to see it as a case of government greed because you didn’t see how the DMV clerk personally profited so thus my contention that it all boiled down to government greed was invalid.

        This is a straw man argument because the plain text of my statements made it abundantly clear that I was speaking of state governments, not individuals at the DMV, thus you are contending something that is irrelevant to my statement.

        That is the definition of a straw man argument – Arguing a point that a person never made in an attempt to draw a conclusion about the point that they were, in fact, making.

    • Rupert in Springfield

      Someone being held accountable in Government? Surely you jest?

      Look, I don’t know exactly what “actual” damages Jason is suffering here but at the end of the day, if a private citizen tried to have someone arrested, or sued, or attached his assets based on no more evidence than

      “well…..well…..he has the same name and birthday”

      they would put him away. Lord knows who ever made the rule that if another state says you owe parking tickets, they don’t have to do jack to prove it, and it is entirely up to you to clear it. I have to say I am not sure, but I have a real good feeling this wasn’t voted on by anyone. I would bet it was another case of government by fiat.

      At the end of the day, what would be nice is that since the onus seems to be on Jason to clear himself, the Alabama and Oregon governments should be held liable, same as if a private citizen falsely attached someone’s assets.

      Jason got mugged.

      • dian

        I didn’t get the impression Jason was complaining about damages. The whole thing told me he was frustrated with the system and was telling his story. Maybe I missed something. I did not hear him complain about standing in line, I did hear him tell what happened to him. What’s wrong with that.

  • Harry

    Oregon Catalyst might as well change their name to: “An argument with dean and his liberal trolling”.

    An effective troll uses many tools to accomplish his goal, which is to hijack, divert or even subvert the original dialog. See wikipedia.

    And dean is effective at his craft, especially with some many enablers on this site helping him along.

    IMO, it has turned Oregon Catalyst into quite the boring site, actually.

    • Anonymous

      Jason –

      Please ban Dean. He contributes nothing to the discussion. If it wasn’t clear before it should be clear now that his sole function is to naysay every other comment. No poster should be allowed to contnually clog the site with such irrelevancy. Harry is right about his negative effect on the site. You’d actually be doing him a favor, if he can’t waste all day here, he might actually get a job (teaching one class as an extended studies instructor at PSU isn’t a job).

      • davidg

        I don’t agree that Dean or anyone else should be banned. As trolls go, at least Dean is up-front about his beliefs and opinions, and I have not noticed that he resorts to rude insults or name-calling when he states his opinions (though I admit not reading everything that he or anyone else posts). I think his posts also provoke very interesting responses which would not have happened otherwise.

        • Harry

          David,

          I am not requesting, nor advocating, that dean be banned. I am only observing “IMO, it has turned Oregon Catalyst into quite the boring site, actually.”

          As to your comment: “I think his posts also provoke very interesting responses which would not have happened otherwise.”, I will only ask what your definition of interesting is? In the eye of hte beholder…

          And does dean further the mission of OregonCatalyst as a place for conservative Oregonians to gather and share news, commentary, and gossip, well he doesn’t, IMO.

          But that is okay. There are many other conservative sites that have not yet been blessed with dean’s domination of the discourse.

          • rural resident

            Anon and Harry … Are you saying that conservative arguments are so lacking in substance and are so indefensible that they can’t stand up to someone pointing out logical or factual inconsistencies?

            Both liberal/progressive and conservative discourse is improved by arguments coming from the opposite side. Oregon Catalyst is actually a more interesting site than Blue Oregon precisely because it draws opinions on both sides. On BO, there is relatively little challenge to the constant drumbeat of left-wing views.

  • Anonymous

    What I want to know is if jason got his license back

    • dean

      Harry…you flatter me too much. To think I have that level of talent and power. But perhaps it would be much better if everyone would just agree on everything, don’t you agree?

      dian…Jason said: “Where else can you go and stand in line with 22 people ahead of you?”

      That sounded like complaining to me. If it was simply a factual statement: I was 22nd in line, he could have also stated the tyle of flooring and how many windows the room had. He was trying to make his larger point (bad government) by exaggerating the wait, in my opinion. (Personally, I think there is enough bad government out there that there is no need to exaggerate).

      Rupert…your plain text was not plain enough for me apparently. But still…”government greed?” Collecting fines for law violations is defined as greed? What good are fines if they are not enforced? I thought conservatives like yourself support law enforcement?

      Maybe attaching a photo would have been a good idea, maybe it would have amounted to a privacy violation. But the absence of the photo signifying greed? I just don’t buy it.

      But enough on Jason’s trials and tribulations. Surely something more important or urgent is happening somewhere.

      • dian

        zip it

      • Rupert in Springfield

        My first post ( the relevant parts )

        >Ahh yes, and of course somehow all the DMV’s are hooked up to collect on each others tickets as there is money to be made! The extra expense of adding a picture to the database forgone as it would eat into profits.

        My second post ( the relevant parts )

        >This whole thing its about government screwing up because they are soooooo scared someone will move and not pay a damn ticket.

        You thought that was talking about individual DMV clerks, and not about governments in general? How astonishing. That frankly is very hard to believe.

        At any rate, to continue:

        >Collecting fines for law violations is defined as greed? What good are fines if they are not enforced? I thought conservatives like yourself support law enforcement?

        We do, however this is a civil matter, not a law enforcement matter so I am not sure of the relevance.

        As an aside, since you apparently don’t think government is greedy in this regard, let us please not ever hear any talk about greedy bank fees, credit card fees and the like, they tend to be much smaller than the rate at which government steps up late fees on these sort of tickets. I have a feeling whatever penalties have accrued on these tickets would make a loan shark blush.

        Maybe attaching a photo would have been a good idea, maybe it would have amounted to a privacy violation. But the absence of the photo signifying greed? I just don’t buy it.

        A privacy violation? Are you serious? God Lord man, we are talking about the DMV, they do tend to take a photograph of everyone who gets a drivers license and be able to bring it up at a moments notice when you go down there or get pulled over.

        The fact is apparently at least the Alabama State government just simply cant be bothered to provide a photograph with their claim, they just want the money, that’s greed pure and simple. The Oregon State government is equally culpable in giving any credence to what, if it was a private claim this specious, should be thrown out in an instant. The states have a good racket going with this, obviously no one wants to rock the boat to much, too bad they don’t chase after those who skate on their emergancy room/hospital bill with the same alacrity. They seem to jump to a simple tug of the leash from Alabama, imagine if they looked out for in state hospital revenues the same way they do for other states DMV’s?

        • dean

          For anon above….I agree my only function here is to naysay every comment. But wait….cancel that. I disagree, just to stay consistent.

          Harry…the scary thing about cyberspace is I could show up just about anywhere. I could be blogging under 15 different pseudonyms. I could be anonymous (above) and be simply arguing with myself. A Descartian moment eh?

          So your other “conservative” sites may not be so safe after all. Bwahahahaha (que the evil sounding laughter).

      • Boring John

        Dean,
        You must be from Damascus, a Greek, and the most Liberal person I care to call a friend. Get off our CONSERVATIVE site and go play with your friends who lost the 3 iniatives.

  • Fran in Coos Bay on 02/29/08

    Well how long did it take to get your license? Or have you gotten it yet?

  • Jason W.
  • K.J. Hockema

    Jason, How much longer are we going to deal with the state ran DMV’S? These people could not make it for one minute in the private sector, they have no idea how to produce or satisfy a customer. Try as I did for 20 years as a contractors rep. to go into a DMV office to get a permit for an oversize load permit to haul logging equipment and wait while a crew is sitting on the side. This DMV is totally representative of the state of the state, it is bab and getting worse, these liberal knotheads have been drinking the “PERS” koolaid so long they actually think they are effective. Oregon has lost its way and the electorate needs to keep itself informed, but with the liberal state employees dominating the vote in Portland, Salem, Corvallis, Eugene and of course Ashland the old respectful “guard” of Oregon has no chance until PERS goes broke…Best Regards K1 In Paris, Ore.

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