There is No ‘Right’ to Healthcare – Period!

Sorry Bouncin’ Ben and Doc’ K, but there is no “˜right’ to health care. Healthcare is a “˜need’ not a “˜right’.

So what is the difference between a “˜need’ and “˜right’? Well Mr. Westlund and Johnny Boy, here are the dictionary definitions:

Need (noun)
1. A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted: crops in need of water; a need for affection.
2. Something required or wanted; a requisite.
3. Necessity; obligation: There is no need for you to go

Right (noun)
1. That which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.
2. a. Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.
b. Something, especially humane treatment, claimed to be due to animals by moral principle.
3. A just or legal claim or title.

A need is a necessity or requirement. Fish need water. Birds need air. (Hey, isn’t that a song? Close?)

A right is just, due by nature. I have right to free speech. You have right to worship as you choose.

But, you may notice that the exercise of a right does not require anything from anyone else other than from the person exercising them. This is because a right exists independently, by nature. They are not granted by the Constitution. (See my earlier post for that explanation) They are not granted by the government. Your next-door neighbor does not grant them.

Rights are natural, inherent, something you are born with. No one can give them to you, which means that a right cannot require someone else give something to someone.

Healthcare may be a need along with the infinite other needs of humans like food, water, or shelter. But, Health care is not a right because someone else has to provide it.

Healthcare can be self provided to a point, so that small portion of self-treatment is a right. Like people who take herbal supplements or exercise daily. But as soon as a person asks another to provide their healthcare it becomes a need, not a right.

Even if I am hungry and need food, I can’t just take it from my neighbors. I do not have a right to their food just because I have a need. If I take it, that is called stealing.

If I put a gun to a doctor’s head and force him to treat my ingrown toenail that is also theft. (As well as assault with a deadly weapon.) I may have needed treatment, but I do not have a right to that treatment because it requires someone else’s time or treasure.

Government should protect rights. Charity should provide for the needs of those that are unable to provide them for themselves. Requiring charity under threat of force is theft, just like holding that gun to the head of a doctor. We should encourage charity, not force it upon people through laws and taxation.

But maybe Bouncin’ Ben and Doc’ K are right, and needs and rights are interchangeable. I think I need a new 52″ flat screen high definition television with surround sound and a DVR. Do you think they can raise taxes on some minority of Oregonians to provide me and other people lacking home theatres with the proper audio/visual stimulation that should be our right?

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  • Steve Plunk

    Well said. The quasi-marxists want to make many of our wants and needs into rights. Accomplishing that will make redistribution policies easier to justify. These made up rights can also be used for social engineering. A right to public transportation, for example, will shift resources away from highway construction into mass transit.

    The problem in health care is costs and we must address the ever higher prices before we can solve anything. Putting more money into the system will only feed the beast and make it stronger.

  • Rob Lee

    Regardless “need” or “right”, every Oregonian will soon have basic healthcare. That is a FACT and a REALITY

    Fact (Noun)
    1) Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
    2) A real occurrence; an event

    Reality (Noun)
    1) The quality or state of being actual or true
    2) One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual

  • Betts

    By the first definition of right, provided by Mr. Bozievich, one could argue for healthcare to be a right:

    Right (noun)
    1. That which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.

    Providing universal healthcare is just, morally good, legal, proper and fitting. Can we afford it? No. Would it be a good thing to do? Yes. Promoting a healthcare plan as a goal is not a bad thing, in my opinion. It is simply frustrating that so much high-browed banter is wasted on the theory by our politicians while no one seems to really be trying to make a healthcare plan economically feasible.

    And I don’t think I’d agree with the definition of right as that which is due by nature. The Continental Congress decided on certain rights which appear in our Bill of Rights. We believe we should have these rights because they are moral goods and must be given if we are to be “free.” As we all know, the document originally read that one of our inalienable rights was property. How many of us believe that today – that everyone has a right to property?

    Rights are not due by nature, they are demanded by the people and protected by the government, and are at their core purely philosophical. For example, as there is nothing natural about religion (in that religion is dependent upon cognitive intellect and civilization to exist, both of which are not found in nature) our right to free worship is not due by nature.

  • Todd Hawes

    If you NEED health care, you have RIGHT to get it.

  • Steve Plunk

    Since we currently don’t have universal health care it is not “a real occurence” but a possible one and it is not “the state of being actual or true” since it has not happened. I can’t say that it will or will not happen in the future since I can’t predict things to come but in the meantime I will debate the ideas that surround the issue.

    Using the inappropriate definition of right there are still problems determining health care as a right.

    Is justice served by taking property from one citizen and giving it to another? Is it moral to take from one and give to another? These points are debatable The legality has yet to be determined since the laws are not in place to do accomplish universal healthcare.

    Proper and fitting can certainly be argued both ways. Taking the position that it is a right and then transfering it to a government program would create a bureaucracy that would neither be proper or fitting for the circumstances. Shared risk through private insurance would perhaps be a more proper and fitting solution.

    I certainly agree that our rights are determined by consensus or through political means. Since the right of healthcare would be a new or invented right then the next step would be to do just that, arrive at consensus through the political process. We are certainly far from that. Both Kitzhaber and Kulongoski talk a good game both but fail to address the costs. In the political process the costs will be the sticking point.

    Jay’s argument points out that if this issue is given the status of an inherent “right” then we can expect other “rights” to be lining up for recognition. Many of us would argue for patience and caution knowing that once granted these “rights” cannot easily be repealed if later determined wrong.

    Like I have said before, we are looking at the wrong part of the equation. Our leaders continue to only look to the payment variable rather than the cost variable. The structure of healthcare has not changed for decades while the mechanisms for payment and the technologies have changed immensly.

    If our elected leaders wanted to lower costs I would expect to see more doctors being trained, nurses being allowed to treat many more illnesses, medical techs filling healthcare needs, and common drugs sold over the counter so we could avoid those $100 office visits.

    If the industry truly wanted to see costs come down we wouldn’t see hospital building programs that are gold plated driving up costs. Heck, my local hospital advertises butler service for your meals. How does that help deliver affordable services to the public? The industry would also minimize rather maximize costs when someone comes in for treatment. I’ve heard of lawsuit threats but the hospitals like to fill the coffers as well.

    Until these issues are taken care of we can expect no public support for universal health care. Even with them remedied I would expect less than a majority ever claiming free healthcare as a right alongside of freedom of speech, religion, and all the others we traditionally refer to in our constitution’s bill of rights.

  • Bert

    I have read your other post, which was very interesting, but I still conclude that rights are defined socially and politically.

    The dictionary definition of “right” you provide could include just about anything.

    By your logic, there is no right to bear arms; nor property rights (e.g. land); nor could the state grant a water right. By staking out and enforcing property lines, you force others to forgo its use.

    A perspective different from the one you provide is as follows.

    Society engages in a social contract. Members agree to give up certain “natural” capacities — such as killing others, theft, or restricting others’ trade. In return, they get certain socially agreed upon “rights” — such as the right not to be killed, the right to speech, etc.

    In the US, for a variety of reasons, we seem to be at a stage where we have agreed that: flexible labor market relations, flexible immigration policy, uneven distribution of wealth, unfettered global trade, and Schumpeterian-like creative destruction are more or less OK.

    We have determined, perhaps erroneously, that, as a whole society, is better off by adopting these rules.

    But in asking many members of society to accept certain losses and associated risks, we may reduce risks or sweeten the deal by arriving at universal access to college education or health care as rights. We may establish that access to clean air and clean water are rights. When we do so, we signal to members of society that they may legitimately argue that these things are their due.

    If we don’t make such an agreement, then certain social groups might decide that the proposed social contract doesn’t work for them.

  • You are on the right track with this post, but you chose the wrong word.

    Health Care is not a “need.” Health Care is a WANT.

    You need air. Without air, you die in minutes. Depriving you of air is murder.

    You need water. Without water, you die in days. Depriving you of water is murder.

    You need food. Without food, you die in weeks. Depriving you of food is murder.

    But even these situations recognize the time factor. If you hold your breath for a minute, you might be uncomfortable but you aren’t going to die. If you are kept in a meeting for several hours without a chance to get a drink of water, you may get thirsty. So what? And if you are kept from getting your food stamps for a few days while the state processes your claim, you may go hungry–but you aren’t going to die from it.

    Common law recognizes the “year and a day” rule for cause of death. If you are hit in the head, and later that day you succumb to your wounds, you were murdered. But if you get hit in the head, and it weakens your skull but otherwise leaves you fine, and several years later when you bump your head on the car door and it kills you–were you murdered by the initial wound? The law says no.

    EMERGENCY health care is a need. If you are suffering from a sucking chest wound, you will be dead soon without emergency care.

    Guess what? Doctors are required by law to give you free emergency health care. If you show up in the ER with a knife in your chest, they will do all they can to save your life.

    But general health care is not a need.

    General health care is a want.

    Got a hacking cough? You may want the state to help you. I don’t. Go pick up a bottle of Robitussin and leave me alone. You don’t NEED the state to take care of your cold.

    Now on to the extreme example. I know it will sound cold hearted, but it is a reality. If you are ill, and without treatment provided for free by the state, you will eventually die after many years, TOO BAD.

    Year and a day rule. Let’s say you get Lou Gerigh’s disease. Without treatment, you might die after a few years. With treatment, you will still die, but you might have 10 extra years of life.

    Does the government owe you that? Do you need to get it for free?

    I say no. You WANT that treatment. You don’t NEED it.

    Call me an evil bastard. I don’t care. I may WANT your approval, but I don’t NEED it.

    So what do you do?

    The answer is, while you are still healthy, you take actions to best prepare for the possibility that some day you won’t be healthy.

    Get a job. A good job. Good jobs have health insurance (as well as various short and long term disability plans, etc).

    Wait a minute, you can’t just GET a good job, right?

    WRONG.

    Start with a crap job. Work hard. Get experience and a good recommendation from your boss when you want to move up.

    Go to school. k-12 is free. Do well there. Graduate.

    Put yourself through college. I can do it. So can you.

    Make yourself marketable. If you fail, it is your own damn fault.

    Then, when working, save money. Don’t buy a plasma TV set. Don’t buy jewelry. Don’t run up huge credit card bills buying disposable goods, pizza, and beer.

    Put money into a savings plan, to help you out in case of an emergecy.

    Most people are perfectly capable of providing all their health care needs. They just don’t WANT to. Instead, they think the state NEEDS to for them, because they mistakenly believe it is a RIGHT.

    Now sure, there will be some who, despite all their hard work and good intentions, will be unable to provide their health care. Think of the poor person who, early in life, before having a chance to work and save money, comes down with some horrible long-term chronic illness and can’t work.

    I am very sorry for these people. I want to be able to help them. But the state is not the answer.

    There are many fine private charities dedicated to helping people in need. Anyone who truly needs help can obtain it, without costing the state.

    So what do people NEED? How about getting government out of the way, so we can all prosper and make more money, which leads to more charitable donation? Every study shows that the better the economy is, the more giving we become. And private charity is usually far more efficient than any government agency. That’s why it takes months, sometimes YEARS to get “needed” health care in liberal-utopia Canada.

    Let’s end the false promise of government health care once and for all. The private sector is the best health care system in the world. Just ask all the foreigners who come here from nations with state run hospitals…

  • John Starette

    No Gullystooge, heathcare is a necessity and needs to be provided to those that don’t have it and/or can’t afford it. Eventually this will be a reality nationwide with or without “evil bastards” like you. It will be funded by tax dollars and will, in fact, BE. If you don’t like it, there is a some ocean front property on Bikini Atoll that we can deport you to.

    By the look of your yellow feet, you might go get checked for a fungal infection, jaundice, or Diabetes. See if you had healthcare you would be able to take better care of yourself.

  • red

    Look, I could qualify for some health care programs out there…but I would be embarrased to sign up for a government program. I can take care of myself, thank you very much.

    • Bert

      On what basis do you draw this conclusion? How about an example to support your argument? It just is not supported by the facts in the case of health care. Other countries with socialized care spend less than we do, have better health care outcomes, and wider coverage.

      When you use insurance companies the way we do in the US, you are paying an aweful lot of people to figure out how to cherry pick and deny care. (May be a positive is that they also watch costs, but on a whole it is still more expensive for society.)

      If you insist on using markets, you at least have to ackowledge that people without income can not get care. So, your solution could be to use health care vouchers to acheive unversal coverage. That would be a market solution with a subsidy to health care consumers.

  • Mike Kalish

    Bottom line, semantics aside, the free market is still the most efficient way to deliver any good or service to the “customer”. The closer we get to a free market, the more people will have good health care available. We all know (or should know) what happens when government gets involved and tries to provide and make things “fair”. The way to have a robust free market is to make government smaller and unleash the American entrepreneurial spirit. More people will have jobs, and they will get to keep more of what they earn, enabling them to afford whatever health care they want…or need.

  • Todd Hawes

    Health care like most government is not a profit making or should not be a profit making enterprise. Our “free market” health care is an absolute failure. Make no mistake, Canada and England have health care systems rife with problems but they offer health care to everyone. Although I’m a bit foggy about the actual numbers, I believe Canada and England spend about the same amount of GDP (15%) as the US yet they insure everyone. Also, 1/3 of all $$s in our health care system goes directly to insurance companies who epitomize a beaureacratic nightmare. Insurance companies do not drive down costs, they drive up costs.

    My libertarian instinct think MSAs would be a drastic improvement. We also need to break the link between employers and health care. We are the only country in the world that has such archaic system.

    Yes, emergency rooms cannot refuse service but what a total waste of $$$ and effort to treat kid who has a high feaver when a simple doctor visit could have solved the problem. I don’t know the answers, but with the spiraling costs of Medicare/Medicaid and now this obnoxious Drug Benefit program, here is the 6000lbs gorilla stairing us in the face.

  • Brian Crouch

    If health care is a right… and food is not a right…

    …then others who are sick have a right to demand others go without food in order for their health needs to be met.

    If health care is a right… and doctors meet that need…

    …then doctors have no right to refuse care based on non-payment of past due bills.

    If health care is a right… and some procedures cost millions…

    …then no matter how much debt a city, state, or federal government incurs, it must provide multi-million dollar treatment for all that might benefit from it.

    If health care is a right…

    …then a person who takes good care of herself must pay the bills for a potsmoking, drinking, slothful couch potato, even if she doesn’t want to.

    Amen to this post: Health care is not a right, must not be considered a right, will never be a right. I have no right to demand you pay for my food, I have no right to demand you pay for my heating bill, I have no right to expect you to pay for my mortgage or lease. Those are more basic, and cheaper, than medical care. Yet I certainly don’t have a right to force you (on pain of incarceration, for that is what non-payment of taxes will mean) to pay for my medicine.

    Those that are calling health care a basic right are brainwashed propagandized sheep.

  • See how the left responds to people with different opinions? Personal insults and deportation. So much for liberal tolerance. Oh, and democracy be damned! They believe something is a right, so just let it be so, regardless of whether or not, you know, people vote for it.

    I am glad people like John Starette are reading and responding to blogs like these: it gives us a chance to see who they really are, exposing their true beliefs.

  • Steve Schopp

    Isn’t this debate about health care really about whether people have a “right” to get free Insurance?

    No one in this country is denied basic health care but the left insists they are while demanding everyone be provided free insurance and without means testing.

    What a mess.

  • Bert

    For me insurance is just a vehicle for distributing care and sharing risks. I don’t associate a “right to health care” with insurance per se, but with the care.

    Let’s see, there’s 45 million people in the US without health insurance and probably a lot more that are uncounted.

    May be they won’t be refused at the emergency room, but they will only go when something is already wrong and hence they will not have had access to any preventative care. After the patient is driven to bankruptcy, society pays high emergency costs, higher long term care costs.

    This logic also affects people with “health savings accounts.” Since they pay the first $2500 or so of family care, they are likley to put off getting care, perhaps perilously.

    You can means test if you want, but that doesn’t get around a persistent problem with the current US and association of health insurance with the labor market. When firms that employ low wage workers compete, they do so in part on labor costs. Since there is no employer mandate, they drop coverage for employees. If means testing is high, then the working poor might qualify for state coverage. More employers have an incentive to drop coverage, because their competitors are doing so and the state provides the insurance.

    Or, since the state has always has a “budget crisis,” means testing is not high. Many people go without coverage.

    You know in you gut, that doing things right the first time prodcuces better results. Waiting for a problem to get serious, and then treating it is the wrong solution.

    Further, even though conservatives think markets are great, you should also recongnize that ALL economic activity is subject to 1) economies to scale and 2) transaction costs. There is a lot of evidence out there that says that our current system has really high transaction costs. As a society we can choose different systems that mix universal health care with markets to acheive better and more humane outcomes.

    Given what we could have, then, the current system is what is messy.

  • I demand free auto insurance, especially since the government says I have to have auto insurance in order to drive.

  • Bert

    Yuk, Yuk, That’s a good one!

    The transportation analogy isn’t so far off though. By and large, REGARDLESS of your income, you have access to millions of acres of continuous strips of land through “rights of way” on city, streets, non-toll highways, beaches in Oregon, etc.. You can walk or hitchhike to a lot of places! Aren’t you glad that government (gasp!) had and continues to have the foresight to set that up that way!

    True, if you have income, property and/or burn fuel you’ll pay. But considering that, for whatever reason, you could have ended up being that homeless guy with a shopping cart, aren’t you glad that, if it came to that … or comes to that in the future, you’d have access to those rights of way.

    As for your auto insurance analogy, government laws or agreements among insurers have resulted in provisions for what happens when you have the misfortune to have an accident with someone who does not have insurance. That’s kind of prudent.

    You might be able to convince some people, but likely not me, that auto insurance is on par with health care as a right. I’d suggest that walking or riding a bike is just better for your and your neighbors health … provided you are not hit by a car.

    For good measure, I’d vote for a “right to a bike” law and/or support the work of groups such as the Community Cycling Center that help unite people in need with a bike. I think that, with all the wealth – much of it in the form of “open source” knowledge-capital – we’ve created over the last 1000s of years, we can afford to splurge on that.

    For things that are “necessary” but don’t rise to the level of “rights” or social priorities, I think a better approach is “a minimum income” that provides assistance for a preferred basket of goods (Conservative economist Milton Friedman outlined such a program which he thought was superior to direct subsidy programs such as foodstamps because it would let the needy express their preferences. He thought that would be more economically efficient because you would not be interfering with product markets.

    I hazily recall that Nixon thought it was a good idea, which shows you how much Republicans have changed in the last 30 years. Well, at least, in some ways.

  • PanchoPdx

    “I hazily recall that Nixon thought it [universal healthcare] was a good idea”

    Which just goes to show that Tricky Dick was not just morally corrupt, but intellectually as well.

  • Bert

    Sorry “it” = minimum income

  • I’m sorry, but I have to say your attitude is nonsense. Interesting philosophically, but nonsense…

    There is no such thing as natural rights or “god given” rights since there is no god. “Rights” are an invention of man.

    You state “Rights are natural, inherent, something you are born with. No one can give them to you, which means that a right cannot require someone else give something to someone.”

    Therein lies your fundamental mistake. “Rights” require that every person gives something to every other person: Respect of the rights. You have rights only because I recognize them, and vise-verse. And that’s why it’s absolutely necessary to codify that respect.

    So since there are no fundamental rights, healthcare isn’t a right… But the point is moot.

    And in a democracy, “we” can vote just about anything, even your “rights,” away… After all, no part of our laws are unchangeable.

    It’s interesting you mention the “right” to self-medicate. It’s a perfect example of the world as it is. Here in America, that “right” has been under assault by religious whack-jobs and greedy professional interests for over a hundred years. Today, there is a row going on as to whether or not pharmacists can refuse to fill prescriptions, using their near monopoly power to force their morality on an otherwise powerless person – a truly evil act, that… If someone killed a pharmacist for doing so and I sat on the jury I would vote to acquit….

    The provider doesn’t own the drug. The provider has their position of privilege because they were afforded the opportunity to go to school, an opportunity almost certainly at least partially provided by the public. They operate by government license.

    There is no “right” there – only power, the ultimate corrupter.

    And that’s the issue. I could accept the libertarian attitude of no “right” to healthcare if there were truly unrestricted access. As it is a technology that has been created by the efforts of thousands, working over hundreds of years and paid for by the taxes and contributions of millions has been stolen from we the people, not because it is “right” to do so but because fanatical minorities forced it on the rest.

    It’s time to take it back. I say screw the doctors and other providers, and double screw the pharmaceutical companies… Triple screw the insurance companies… we can make anything a right we want to. It’s time to make this one a right.

    Universal healthcare now.

  • If you reject the notion that basic rights derive from some higher source than man, that all rights therefore are granted by man, you must accept it when man takes away your rights.

    Hitler, Stalin, Mao, they all loved people like you. They called you useful idiots.

  • JoJo

    Right or need? Who knows…

    What those opponents of universal health care don’t seem to realize is that right now we all pay for the costs of the uninsured via cost-shifting – reliable estimates are that $1200 per year of every family health insurance policy in Oregon already goes towards the cost of the uninsured – and they get the most expensive and fragmented care possible, in the Emergency Room. Sick people don’t stop getting sick just ’cause they don’t have insurance – they get sicker. Despite the belief that everyone can have access to health care if they want (with charity help, etc) this is just a fairytale…18,000 Americans die every year due to lack of access to health care – and remember, we all PAY for it.
    It clearly makes moral sense to ensure everyone has at least basic health care…it also makes financial sense.

    This doesn’t mean the government has to PAY for everyone’s health care. We don’t need more money for our health care, we need more health care for our money. The way things are going, if we do nothing about the worsening health care system, I guarantee all of our insurance premiums will continue to skyrocket, and our taxes will go up!

    Has anyone looked at the health care related inititives that actually address costs – The Healthy Oregon Plan, the drug purchasing pool for uninsured, and the insurance accountability initiative? What do people think of those?

  • Gullyborg, don’t be silly…

    OOOHHH… Drag out the commie quotes… Not that it makes the idea you espouse any stronger… Nothing can make your case stronger, because your case has no merit. Apparently you lack the courage to face the universe as it is: There are no gods, and we are the devils…

    But if the only way you can face the world is to hide behind a fairy tale, that’s OK. Just keep in mind that for every Stalin there is an Osama… Or a Pat Robertson… All waiting their opportunty to wage genocide on behalf of their fantasy…

    And no, I don’t have to accept anything. You, my neighbor, the current government or some other can have my rights when they get past my .45.

    And as an Atheist, I consider another’s life to be their property and I value another’s property only as much as they do, rather than valuing it by an arbitrary standard. So if anyone wants to throw their life away in front of my muzzle, that’s fine by me…

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