Light rail: Central planners don’t care what suburbanites want

by Dave Lister

In response to the signature-gathering in Clackamas County to refer the county’s funding of the Milwaukie light-rail line to the voters, Metro Councilor Carlotta Collette, who represents part of that county, was quoted as saying, “We work hard to find out what communities want to be, and then help them become that.” That would elicit a laugh-out-loud from the petitioners in Clackamas, the Estacada voters who just squelched urban renewal and the voters in Damascus who just thwarted Metro by passing a measure requiring a popular vote on any comprehensive land-use plan. It would probably also elicit a chuckle from the Troutdale City Council, which appears to have reached an uneasy truce with the regional government over alleged non-compliance with Title 13 of Metro’s 2040 master plan. 

Title 13, also known as “nature in neighborhoods,” seeks to conserve, protect and restore a continuous ecologically viable streamside corridor system that is integrated with upland wildlife habitat and the surrounding urban landscape. The code itself encompasses 129 pages, covering everything from property setbacks from streambeds to vegetation requirements in public greenspaces. The Troutdale council has wrangled with Metro for four years over the details, insisting that the city’s current code already meets Title 13 goals, but a mid-February Metro Council vote to take enforcement action, which would have denied Troutdale funding from regional programs, brought the parties to the table.

“Title 13 came to us in 2008,” says Troutdale City Councilor Rich Allen. “We asked them what would happen if we didn’t comply. Their answer was that they never enforce it and never had enforced it. Metro presents their model ordinances as just guidelines, but then when you don’t follow them, you are told they are absolute.”

Noting that more and more communities are pushing back, Troutdale Councilor Glenn White says, “Our existing code protects more land than their Title 13 does, but I think they decided to slap the rogue city first. It’s just too bad they picked one of the greenest cities to attack.”

The pushback against Metro’s regional transportation and development vision has now jumped to the west side of the Willamette. Not waiting for funding to be approved or construction to start, as in the case of the Milwaukie light-rail line, citizens in Tigard, Tualatin, King City and Sherwood will be gathering signatures to thwart a light-rail expansion west on Oregon 99, still only in the conceptual stages with TriMet.

In response to that effort, Metro Councilor Carl Hosticka, who represents those communities, suggests in a March 24 opinion piece in The Oregonian’s Southwest Community weekly that the petition effort is undemocratic because “a handful of voters can veto a project affecting people throughout the region.” Probably without knowing it, Hosticka has perfectly illustrated the argument. The central-planning advocates believe their regional vision overrides the will of the bedroom communities in the suburbs. The suburbanites believe they have the right of self-determination. They don’t want the crime, congestion and density that they think will come with light rail. The central planners don’t care what the suburbanites want.

From Damascus to Tigard, from Milwaukie to Sherwood, citizens are pushing back against Metro’s vision for the region. As more and more of these initiatives make the ballot and are passed, the question is, what will Metro and other agencies do? The central planners aren’t going to go down without a fight.

A recent report by The Oregonian’s Emily Fuggetta, coupled with Troutdale’s experience, makes it pretty clear: The Oregon Department of Transportation has suspended the funding of a Transportation System Plan for the rebellious city of Damascus.

Dave Lister is a small-business owner who served on Portland’s Small Business Advisory Council.

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  • Criminaltype

    Without light rail I find it hard to get transportation to areas where I rob things.

  • scatcatpdx

    it hope one can build momentum for a push to seceded for metro. 

    • conservatively speaking

      Clackamas County residents did NOT want Metro in the first place and voted so in 1979.  Alas, the dubiously-lawful ballot measure was passed by the dominant populace counties.“`Today, many wonder if the superflous PERSy ‘government(ium)’ entity would survive a ‘decertification’ vote, especially in view of http://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/entry/view/metro/
      stating in part…Metro has remained the only directly elected regional government for any United States metropolitan area.  [Hmm!]

      IMO, Clackamas County, out from under the thumbs of Washington and Multnomah counties, should be allowed to legally secede.
      In fact the 1979 ballot measure may NOT have been Oregon constitutionally valid because it dealt with more than one issue.
      [Hmm, again!]  

  • valley person

     “That would elicit a laugh-out-loud from the petitioners in ….
    Damascus who just thwarted Metro by passing a measure requiring a
    popular vote on any comprehensive land-use plan.”

    The Damascus vote had nothing to do with Metro. It had to do with internal Damascus arguments about planning. Metro was not on the ballot.

    Damascus has to create a land use plan that will turn us from a mostly rural community into a suburban one. There are a lot of people who don’t want to lose their views of green fields and forested hillsides, nor do they want to have to pay for infrastructure that lets their neighbors become land developers. They tend to vote for anything that slows down completion of a plan and rezoning, and vote against anything that moves the ball forward. I wouldn’t read much more than a normal NIMBY reaction against growth into our vote. 

    • jim karlock

      Of Course the entire Metro region rejected Metro’s densification of neighborhoods in 2002 when probably 75+% of the people voted against more density. See portlandfacts.com/smart/metrodensityvote.htm

      Dean, it is time for you to admit what most people know:
          PLANNERS ARE FASCISTS!
      See: portlandfacts.com/planners_are_fascists.html

      And, Metro is completely out of touch with reality. You saw it in the above article.

      They are even so far out, that they even think we are running out of oil and that CO2 is dangerous! They are all scientific illiterates who are afraid to read anything beyond the Sierra klub weekly reader and the planner’s guide to utopia.

       They actually believe that density reduces traffic congestion that density saves money and that people like density! Of course they have never bothered to double check what the planners tell them, so they don’t realize that most things planners say are lies.

      Thanks
      JK

      • valley person

         According to the link you sent, you LOST your ballot measure, by a pretty substantial margin. So claiming a 75% “victory” is a bit disingenuous no?

        Most people Jim, support land use planning. Most in the Portland area support urban growth boundaries and transit and bicycling. So if you are going to play populism, have a clue as to what most people are for and what they are not for.

        We are, by definition running out of oil, which is after all a fossil fuel that has a fixed supply. The question is how fast are we running out, and how high will prices have to go to support oil production in remote, hard to develop areas like deep ocean and arctic environments.

        As for global warming, it is established scientific fact,evidenced by every scientific body on the planet saying this is so.

        “Density” is a relative concept Jim. Beaverton and Gresham are both much lower density than the Pearl District and have much worse traffic. In fact the Pearl District, which is as high of a density as we have in the region, has hardly any traffic. Why is this? Because everything one needs day to day, including employment, is within walking distance. So it doesn’t matter what the planners tell people, we have real world examples at our doorstep.

        You need to get out more dude.

        • jim karlock

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  So claiming a 75% “victory” is a bit disingenuous no?
          JK—- NO!!!
          Here is what they voted on:
          “Amends Metro Charter’s regional planning provisions to prohibit Metro from requiring density increase in identified single-family neighborhoods.” IBID

          Notice the “prohibit Metro from requiring density increase”? That is what got 65% of the vote. Add a few more percent that voted only for the real density limit and you easily get to 75%

          Hopefully you will notice that is similar to the percentages recently rejecting Metro’s plans in Damascus and Clackamas county.

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  Most people Jim, support land use planning.
          JK—- YES.
          What they DO NOT support is Metro style, top down, dictatorial planning that shoves more density into their block. And they do not want to take mass transit – transit is to get the other guy off of the roads.

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  Most in the Portland area support urban growth boundaries and transit and bicycling.
          JK—-But they DO NOT support more density in their neighborhoods. They do not support the higher housing costs that result from Metro’s Berlin wall. They support transit to take other drivers off te road (which is doesn’t do much of.)

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  So if you are going to play populism, have a clue as to what most people are for and what they are not for.
          JK—-Good advice – I suggest you take it.

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  We are, by definition running out of oil, which is after all a fossil fuel that has a fixed supply.
          JK—-More evidence you are ignorant of both history and chemistry. Oil has been made from coal and natural gas for decades. Further, if one runs out of coal (in a few hundred years) oil can be made from CO2 pulled out of the atmosphere (at greater cost).

          As to fixed supply. Yes, there is also a fixed supply of ocean water, but we don’t worry about running out. Same for oil.

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  As for global warming, it is established scientific fact, evidenced by every scientific body on the planet saying this is so.
          JK—-They you can easily show me the evidence: Real evidence that man’s CO2 is causing dangerous warming. All you are doing is arguing from authority, which is frequently wrong.

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–  In fact the Pearl District, which is as high of a density as we have in the region, has hardly any traffic.
          JK—-Except, of course North Macaddam.
          And, of course, the denser cities like Los Angeles and New Your don’t have any congestion at all!

          Dean Apostile (hiding as Valley Person)—–   Why is this? Because everything one needs day to day, including employment, is within walking distance.
          JK—-WOW! I didn’t realize they had a Home Depot, a Walmart, a Costco, and a Frys. As to employment, when did Intel build a plant there? Or OHSU?

          Thanks
          JK

  • Bob Clark

    Geez, Barbur Boulevard is a very clean road tranportation corridor, and light rail would just muck it up.  It also has one of the most efficient and direct bus systems, which is the number 12.

    But anyways, to be ultimately successful these rebellions must somehow also change the federal transportation funding processes which require Metro and the state government’s approval on how communities get back their share of federal monies (extracted from them for recycling back to them).  City halls become addicted to the current federal funding schemes, and this may be the primary reason they seemingly become co-opted by the Metro beast once in office (that and certain unspoken promises of personal goodies if they play the Metro way).  So, not only must the rebellion be local but must also have a national element to change the federal funding scheme.

    It would help if the GOP could take the Senate and White House while retaining the House.  But odds aren’t good for taking the White House with the economy inching ahead and Obama having various vote-buying slush funds at his disposal.  It seems also once the GOP took the House and put a check on Obama’s leftist policies, the electorate has gone back to sleep.

    Guess we’re stuck with a long term battle against ever expanding central planning oriented government. 

    • Just doing the math

      I agree, I live right off Barbur. Putting a light
      rail in would just create a traffic nightmare.
      What Barbur could use is some of the Urban
      Renewal money that seems to find its way
      into other areas of Portland except my own.
      Use that money to re-pave/add landscaping.

  • Rexburkholder

    “rebelious Damascus”? How about, if you refuse to comply with the state law, that every other city is following, why should you expect to get money from the state? It seems the “rebels” in Damascus and Troutdale are happy to be subsidized by the rest of the region and the state (parks, roads, etc.) but bristle when expected to follow the rules like everyone else. I wouldn’t call them “rebels”, rather hypocrites.

    • valley person

       It already happened. ODOT just suspended further spending of a $1 million federal grant earmarked for transportation planning in damascus. Since we citizens refuse to approve a land use plan that will allow development, there is no need for this money to be spent.

      What “conservatives” fail to recognize is that what is going on in Damascus is basically a NIMBY process where neighbors stop their neighbors from developing their own land by rejecting the zone change that is required to go from rural to urban land uses. Conservatives are in effect rooting for anti-business populism.  Ironic?  

    • jim karlock

      At least they didn’t lie to the voters like Metro did in 2002 with their DO NOTHING density limit. See: http://www.stopmetro.com/Explained.htm

      IF I recall Rex was the one who introduced that measure.

      PS If you really are Rex, why don’t you tell us what actual scientific evidence convinced you that man’s CO2 is causing dangerous warming.
      (Of course, as a science teacher, you know that coincidence is not evidence of causation, weather is naturally extremely variable, H2O causes MORE warming than CO2, man emits less than 5% of the annual CO2 emissions and Al Gore’s famous ice cores show temperature rising 800 years BEFORE CO2.)
                 
      So, Rex, just what is the evidence that man’s CO2 is destroying the earth?

      Have you noticed the massive new methane discoveries? That is the end of the peak gas theory.

      Have you noticed the massive new USA oil discoveries? That is likely the beginning of the end of the peak oil delusion. (Of course the greens are doing everything in their power to stop both of these because they fear cheap energy and the good it does for our standard of living.)

      Here is convenient list of other things Metro is completely wrong about:
      portlandfacts.com/smart/smartgrowthlies.html

      This brings up the question: What good is Metro doing?
      AND UNLIKE METRO, the Clackastanies have not:
      1. Been lying to people.
      2. Dictating to people.
      3. Forcing crackpot theories on the people..

      Thanks
      JK

    • jim karlock

      Rex said—-It seems the “rebels” in Damascus and Troutdale are happy to be subsidized by the rest of the region and the state (parks, roads, etc.) but bristle when expected to follow the rules like everyone else. I wouldn’t call them “rebels”, rather hypocrites.
      Earth to Rex—- They pay gas tax, weight-mile-tax, license fees, etc.
      They are NOT being subsidized, by the rest of the region.
      They are just the start of people realizing how much harm Metro is doing to the region.

      * Metro’s artificial shortage of land has tripled the cost of housing and set the stage for the housing bubble and the near destruction of the world’s economy. (Just a note to the economic illiterate planners at Metro: a bubble, like the housing bubble, cannot get started or continue if supply is readily available. That is why the bubble was almost entirely in areas with severe limits on housing construction. IE: Places with Metro style planning plus a few with natural limits.)

      * Metro is increasing traffic congestion by wasting money on mass transit which DOES NOT reduce energy.

      * Metro planners are too stupid to look at actual data which shows transit is slower than driving (even in New York!) Transit costs more than driving and transit DOES NOT save energy over a car. When BHO’s 50+ MPG automobile mandate kicks in, transit will be a MASSIVE energy waster.

      * Metro planners keep lying to us that there are benefits to us eliminating our back yards, eliminating vacant lots, increasing traffic on neighborhood streets and tearing down affordable houses to put a skinny houses on every block.

      Earth to Rex: Google just took a giant step towards making mass transit obsolete recently when a blind man drove one of their prototype cars on errands.

      Thanks
      JK

    • jim karlock

       Here is what Rex is probably secretly planning:

      “Resistance at individual and societal levels must be recognized and treated before real action can be taken to effectively address threats facing the planet from human-caused contributions to climate change.”

      Sadly, that is not from Mein Kompf, it is from a University of Oregon press release!

      http://uonews.uoregon.edu/archive/news-release/2012/3/simultaneous-action-needed-break-cultural-inertia-climate-change-respons

      Thanks
      JK

    • jim karlock

       Hey Rex,
      1. Is Metro still trying to “replicate” Los Angeles here in Portland?
      See: http://www.portlandfacts.com/metro_measured.html

      2. Is Metro still using Al Gore’s “Earth in the Balance” as guiding document? http://www.portlanddocs.com/metrodocs/FutureVisionReport-txt.pdf

      3. Several of Metro’s founding documents show how out of touch with reality Metro was from the start!  http://www.portlandfacts.com/plans.html

      Thanks
      JK

      • valley person
        • jim karlock

           I didn’t notice any evidence there, just claims of unusual weather. Of course the definition of unusual is only for the last 100 years out of the billions of years the Earth has been here. Laughable Dean, just laughable.

          Thanks
          JK

          • valley person

             No evidence? Higher temperatures, melting ice, early animal migrations, plant hardiness zones being changed, measured increases in greenhouse gasses, measured increases in ocean acidification, and every scientific body on the planet saying this evidence is overwhelming is no evidence?

            The definition of “unusual” Jim, is industrial civilization releasing more carbon into the atmosphere than has been the case since the Jurrasic era.  It would be most unusual if this had no impact on climate AND weather.

          • jim karlock

             Now we are getting down to evidence: Most of the things you mentioned are indeed evidence.

            But not evidence of man being he cause – you didn’t provide a proven link man’s CO2.

            That you consider them evidence of man’s effect on climate shows your lack of logic and science skills.

            I am still waiting for actual evidence that man’s CO2 is causing dangerous warming.

            PS Don’t miss the debunking or your above citation. As usual you cannot tell propaganda from science: http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/rebuttal_to_huffpo_paul_douglas/

            Thanks
            JK

          • valley person

            ” you didn’t provide a proven link man’s CO2.”

            So? Are we a scientific debate panel? You want a non scientist to prove to a non scientist that other scientists have established a direct link between burning fossil fuels and an increase in atmospheric C02?

            Its simple Jim, every major scientific academy on the planet has accepted this as reality. Lack of logic is thinking you know better, and relying on blogs to substantiate your position.

          • jim karlock

             Dean Apostile——Its simple Jim, every major scientific academy on the planet has accepted this as reality.
            JK——-Thank you for showing that your belief in AGW, is just a religion with you – the churches said so, therefore it is so. Dean. What is really sad is that they trust you to teach young people.

            Dean Apostile——Lack of logic is thinking you know better, and relying on blogs to substantiate your position.
            JK——-Amazing. Simply amazing that you don’t know there are thousands of peer reviewed papers with findings that support natural causes for the observed warming.
            For an outdated list see:  http://www.sustainableoregon.com/450papers.html
            For real information on AGW start at the home page of that site.

            Thanks
            JK

          • valley person

             “Thank you for showing that your belief in AGW, is just a religion”

            Accepting what scientific academies say about reality is the opposite of religion dude.

        • jim karlock

           Hey Dean,
          This should pop your delusion about peak oil. A world awash in oil:

          http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/03/30/lawrence-solomon-a-world-awash-in-oil/

          Thanks
          JK

        • jim karlock

           You need to broaden your reading beyond the greenie weekly reader.  Here is another view of your source’s claims:
          http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/rebuttal_to_huffpo_paul_douglas/

          Thanks
          JK

  • Jim

    Rex,
    Weak. Very weak. 

    How is it that you fail so miserably to grasp the situation?  The rebellious uprising is an overwhelming public demand that you stop what you are doing. 
    These initiatives will stop you and lead to changes in the laws. 

    As for the ODOT planning money being withheld.  The same should happen to Metro. 
    YOU should be asked to halt Metro planning until you can establish and provide what the public wants instead of what you want for them.  Because more votes with the same outcomes are inevitable ODOT should act immediately to prevent Metro from wasting millions on planning what the public does not support or want.  

    Contrary to your disingenuous spin Damascus, Troutdale and Clackamas County are paying big time with their gas taxes and property taxes on things they do not want. 

    Here you are with your crap claiming they are subsidized so shut up and obey you?
    Please do go ahead and campaign against public votes all you want. 
    There is finally not a thing you can do to to stop the public from getting what they actually want. And it isn’t what you are trying to force upon them.

  • Jlabbe

    David Lister’s spin on Troutdale’s non-compliance with regional
    habitat and water protections contains distortions and untruths.

    Contrary to Lister’s polemic, Troutdale’s code falls short
    of the minimum stream and wetland protections (Title 13) established by local
    governments and Metro in 2005 after a decade of public and scientific review.  Troutdale’s existing regulations put wildlife
    and water quality in jeopardy. That is the issue here.  Some City Councilors have an extremist notion
    of “property rights” that would allow urban development to degrade streams and
    wetlands while leaving the rest of us to clean up the mess.  That appears why, after of years of planning
    and compromise, a majority of the City Council has opposed even the modest
    environmental protections recommended by its own staff and planning commission.

    For political reasons some like Lister clearly want to cast this as an example of Metro overbearance, but nothing could be futher from the truth. The Metro Council has bent over-backwards to accommodate Troutdale
    after it failed to meet the 2009 deadline for Title 13 compliance. Meanwhile 21
    out 25 local governments already met their commitment to Metro and each other to comply with regional stream and wetland protections.  Most that have not are making progress in good
    faith. Metro has a legal responsibility and a commitment to all residents in
    the region to uphold the adopted regional growth management strategy.

    Sincerely,

    Jim Labbe

    Audubon Society of Portland
     

    • jim karlock

       Labbe——- Metro has a legal responsibility and a commitment to all residents in the region to uphold the adopted regional growth management strategy.
      JK————–Adopted by who? Was the average resident aware of this strategy – did they knowingly approve? Or was this another case of elected officials forgetting about those who elected them and going off on some crackpot path?

      Thanks
      JK

  • valley person

     “Notice the “prohibit Metro from requiring density increase”? That is what got 65% of the vote.”

    Combined with “inside existing residential neighborhoods.” The competing measure, that stopped increased density everywhere, lost big time. People don’t want their existing single family neighborhoods re-zoned for higher density housing. Its understandable. They also don’t want the urban growth boundary expanded to accommodate growth. So they compromised by allowing upzoning along transit corridors and in commercial areas. And THAT compromise has resulted in mixed use corridor planning, which YOU hate.

    Rather than accepting what a large majority said they wanted, you pretend it means something else.

    Support for transit across the region is just as strong as support for planning and the urban growth boundary. But REGIONAL support does not always mean LOCAL support. You confuse local opposition to specific projects with regional preferences.

    “More evidence you are ignorant of both history and chemistry. Oil has been made from coal and natural gas for decades.”

    Last I looked coal and natural gas were also fossil fuels, with fixed amounts in the ground.
     We can make oil from atmospheric C02? I suppose anything is possible at a cost, except turning waste heat back into compact energy.

    “As to fixed supply. Yes, there is also a fixed supply of ocean water, but we don’t worry about running out. Same for oil.”

    Jim, you have written some very dumb things on this site over the years, but this one takes the cake. Oil, when burned is gone forever. Water, when consumed, is recycled. It can’t be lost as long as the earth retains a functioning atmosphere. 

    “K—-Except, of course North Macaddam.”

    ????? North Macadam is nowhere near the Pearl District. You really don’t get out much do you?

    “JK—-WOW! I didn’t realize they had a Home Depot, a Walmart, a Costco, and a Frys.”

    One doesn’t “need” any of those for day to day purchases or employment. And dig this Jim, Wallmart for one is now building smaller, urban stores that cater to foot traffic.

    The world continues to evolve Jim. I’m sorry to break the news to you.

    • jim karlock

       Dean Apostile——People don’t want their existing single family neighborhoods re-zoned for higher density housing.
      JK——Yep! And the includes the nearby major streets.

      Dean Apostile——So they compromised by allowing upzoning along transit corridors and in commercial areas.
      JK——Care to point out the many ads run by the Metro worshipers pointing out the fact that all the major streets will become lined with condo bunkers? YOU CAN’T. Because Metro lied to the people.

      Dean Apostile——Rather than accepting what a large majority said they wanted, you pretend it means something else.
      JK——The fact remains that 65% of the people voted against increased density. You know – like 65% of the people in Damascus voted against the comp plan, 60+% of the people voted against urban renewal (without a vote), 60+% voted against funding light rail with a Clackamas County vehicle tax,  and 77% of the people demanded a voice in the next comp plan. You are totally deluded about density. (Probably all those dollars you expect to make turning your farm into human rabbit hutches.)

      Dean Apostile——Last I looked coal and natural gas were also fossil fuels, with fixed amounts in the ground.
      JK——Fixed – maybe. But in any case, the quantities are sufficient to last hundreds of years. That is longer than the time since the primary means of transport was the horse, the primary source of light (at night) was candles and the primary means of long distance communication was the pony express. You are an idiot if you can’t understand that we are unlikely to need fossil fuels after another 1-200 years of invention.

      Dean Apostile——I suppose anything is possible at a cost, except turning waste heat back into compact energy.
      JK——Please quit pretending that you know anything about energy (or any other science based subject.)  One can easily capture the waste heat from an internal combustion engine and run a steam cycle. (Its actually getting popular lately – its called a “combined cycle”.)  The problem is cost, not theory. Even a simple thermocouple can take waste heat and turn it into electricity.

      Dean Apostile——Jim, you have written some very dumb things on this site over the years, but this one takes the cake. Oil, when burned is gone forever. Water, when consumed, is recycled. It can’t be lost as long as the earth retains a functioning atmosphere.
      JK——What??? Water is the product of burning oil (along with CO2). Learn some basic science! And, please explain exactly how water consumed in the hydrogen fusion process is recycled?

      Dean Apostile——????? North Macadam is nowhere near the Pearl District. You really don’t get out much do you?
      JK——You said: “In fact the Pearl District, which is as high of a density as we have in the region”
      Wrong – North Macadam higher density (or will when completed) – didn’t you notice all those tall towers? You should get out more.

      Dean Apostile——“JK—-WOW! I didn’t realize they had a Home Depot, a Walmart, a Costco, and a Frys.”….One doesn’t “need” any of those for day to day purchases or employment.
      JK——OK, you can shop at the little stores under the condo bunkers. But you end up doubling the cost of many purchases.
      Thanks
      JK

      • valley person

         “JK——Fixed – maybe.”

        No Jim…fixed as in fact. If you can’t accept fossil fuels as an inherently limited resource there is no hope for you.

        “Wrong – North Macadam higher density (or will when completed) – didn’t
        you notice all those tall towers? You should get out more.”

        Macadam Avenue has been traffic choked for the entire over 30 years I have lived in Portland. Long before the recent development. The Pearl District has hardly any traffic congestion. Yet it has high density. Why is this Jim? Why does the Pearl have less traffic congestion than Beaverton?

        “OK, you can shop at the little stores under the condo bunkers. But you end up doubling the cost of many purchases.”

        Safeway and Whole Foods are not “little stores.” Prices are the same there as the Safeway and Whole Foods markets in the suburbs. And if you live in the Pearl and save the cost of owning a car, you have an extra $400 or so a month.

        Have you noticed the new smart car rentals all over town? Competing with Zip car. The world is changing Jim. Stop fighting progress. iJoin us. Don’t be afraid. All we want to do is eat your brain.

        • jim karlock

           Dean Apostile——No Jim…fixed as in fact. If you can’t accept fossil fuels as an inherently limited resource there is no hope for you.
          JK——You are again showing your lack of reading comprehension: I said unlimited in practical terms. As in we have so much that we will, if history is any guide, find something better and cheaper before we run out. We will just naturally quit using oil for transportation fuel. However our fallback position is to make it. Even out of thin air if need be.

          Dean Apostile—— Macadam Avenue has been traffic choked for the entire over 30 years I have lived in Portland. Long before the recent development.
          JK——Quit introducing red herrings. You claimed the Pearl was the densest area and I pointed out that North Macadam is denser.

          Dean Apostile——Safeway and Whole Foods are not “little stores.” Prices are the same there as the Safeway and Whole Foods markets in the suburbs.
          JK——So what? They just another type of overpriced store you find in high density Potemkin villages like the Pearl. The low cost is at WalMart, Costco & Winco. Those are rarelyseen in planner’s paradises like the Pearl.

          Dean Apostile——And if you live in the Pearl and save the cost of owning a car, you have an extra $400 or so a month.
          JK——Can’t you even get the most basic number right?
          The average American spends $3798/yr, or $316.month on a car. However that is heavily tilted by the  $70,000 & up income crowd. When you just look at the average car cost for people who make under $70,000/yr you find $3121, or $260/mo. And that is ALL car costs (probably also including parking!).

          That is less than the actual cost of Trimet per rider per month! In fact it is only $168 more than the cost of a Trimet pass! Think of all the time you save and convenience you get for that $39/week. See http://www.portlandfacts.com/carcost.html

          Dean Apostile——Have you noticed the new smart car rentals all over town? Competing with Zip car.
          JK——What fools. They can actually own a car for only $2765/yr or $7.50/day (average car cost for income $10-15,000/yr. IBID) . Then they don’t have to hassle with appointments, walk to the car, and can actually leave things in the car etc.

          Dean Apostile——The world is changing Jim. Stop fighting progress.
          JK——Yep. Even self driving cars are on the horizon. That will remove the need for mass transit, except to export parking out of downtown. At that point downtown can pay for transit. And the rest of us can spend a tiny amount of money subsidizing cars for low income.

          Thanks
          JK

          • valley person

             “We will just naturally quit using oil for transportation fuel. However our fallback position is to make it. Even out of thin air if need be.”

            Your honor…I rest my case. The man is utterly mad. He has revered the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

            “Quit introducing red herrings. You claimed the Pearl was the densest area and I pointed out that North Macadam is denser.”

            The Pearl is denser than the North Macadam area now, and has been for years. At buildout, its possible North Macadam will be denser, but that hasn’t happened yet. If the Pearl is the densist neighborhood in Portland, which I believe it is, where are the traffic jams Jim?  Hello? Answer that question dude?

            “The low cost is at WalMart, Costco & Winco. Those are rarelyseen in planner’s paradises like the Pearl. ”

            Yes, and lower cost housing is found in trailer parks. So what? People in the Pearl get their daily needs and wants met, groceries, banking, employment, entertainment, exercise, socializing…all within walking distance of their homes. One result is no traffic jams. A cheaper loaf of bread at an ex urban wallmart is not the ultimate goal of life Jim. And in any case, as I mentioned, wallmart is now building smaller, pedestrian friendly urban stores. They are merchants and are changing their model to fit the customer.

            “Think of all the time you save and convenience you get for that $39/week. ”

            The convenience of siting in traffic jams 2 hours a day? Move to the Pearl Jim, and get your life back. Or just get a life.

            “JK——What fools.”

            Yes….fools because they don’t choose what you choose. You know better.

            “Yep. Even self driving cars are on the horizon. That will remove the need for mass transit”

            It will remove the need for attentive car drivers. But I doubt it will remove the need for transit. There is only so much space on urban streets.

            “And the rest of us can spend a tiny amount of money subsidizing cars for low income.”

            Jim wins his long war against transit an liberals. A happy ending to your fairy tale. I give you credit for imagination.

             

          • jim karlock

            Dean Apostile——“We will just naturally quit using oil for transportation fuel. However our fallback position is to make it. Even out of thin air if need be.”

            Your honor…I rest my case. The man is utterly mad. He has revered the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
            JK———-You know NOTHING of thermodynamics. Nothing I said violated the 2nd law.

            I said nothing about energy. Only that one can make oil from atmospheric air. Just as one can make pottery from some kinds of dirt.  Neither statement includes any process details, including the required energy inputs. Too bad you are to illiterate to grasp that.

            Thanks
            JK

          • valley person

            ” Neither statement includes any process details, including the required energy inputs.”

            Yes, and its a good thing too. Your intellectual hole would only get that much deeper. Better to stop yourself.

            But we do get energy from air Jim. Its called wind. 

  • Councilor Allen

    CORRECTION: The comment “Title 13 came to us in 2008,” says Troutdale City Councilor Rich Allen. “We asked them what would happen if we didn’t comply. Their answer was that they never enforce it and never had enforced it. Metro presents their model ordinances as just guidelines, but then when you don’t follow them, you are told they are absolute.” was a comment from another Councilor. I was very busy at work last week and didn’t get it corrected prior to print. I was not on Troutdale City Council in 2008. I started in 2011. Already I have my own stories to tell. I appreciate Dave Lister’s attempt to get the other side of the story out there. I would not personally use the word absolute. It is frustrating to me when we work on good code that meets the needs of our community how many times I hear that Metro won’t go for it. I don’t know how much of this is our own City Staff or how much is Metro. I have Metro Councilor Craddick’s cell number, and she has mine. Hopefully, we can work through any misunderstandings in the future.I am hopeful we can come to an agreement with Metro on Title 13. The next few weeks will be telling. It is very wrong to assume Troutdale doesn’t care about the environment. We also care about making well informed decisions, and being fair in how we treat each other.Drive through Troutdale and you will see we do care very much about our natural environment.

    Opinions of Councilor Rich Allen of Troutdale

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