Universities should fix themselves

By Beau McNeff,

Gov. Kulongoski is flat wrong on the way to spend the Obama administration’s promised “˜stimulus’ money. Why should we use federal tax dollars to supplement major public universities that have fallen behind on their duty to take care of their own campuses? Those same universities will spend millions on a coach’s salary, and pump millions more into stadiums and arenas. Shouldn’t we get on the right track with higher education? Instead of paying millions to constructions companies to build new stadiums, why not have them fix the buildings where the majority of the students are educated? Private universities do not have the luxury of letting maintenance fall behind only to get a handout from Uncle Sam, or Joe the Plumber. Let’s hold our public schools to the same standard.

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  • Jerry

    All colleges and universities in Oregon have raised their tuition rates FAR more than any cost-of-living increases. They are mismagaged – plain and simple. Big Education is far worse than Big Oil. At least big oil knows how to run a business. And where is the bail out money for big oil now that they are hurting??
    College is a joke. Return for investment is very, very low.
    College “profs” are way overpaid. And way, way underworked. Want to retire before you are 35? Just become a college teacher. Great work if you can get it.
    Sad, but true.

    • David from Eugene

      There are three classes of instructors at the typical college or university. From top to bottom they are; tenured faculty, non-tenured instructors and graduate students. The latter two groups are neither over paid nor underworked. And making a living as a non-tenured instructor is not easy at all.

      Besides if you want a college faculty made up of the best and the brightest in their respective fields you are going to have to pay them well.

      • Tim Lyman

        David –

        Coming from a long line of educators and having several friends in the academic world, I can assure you that, unfortunately, our college faculties are not filled with the “best and brightest.” Tenure and full professorship are, today, awarded as often as a result of university politics as for academic achievement.

        You’re dead right about grad students and non-tenured instructors. I know three full professors, including a past president of the Canadian Psychological Association whose entire academic careers were built on taking credit for the work of their grad students. It is an unfortunate practice that many professors will take credit as lead researcher, lead author, or even sole researcher and author on work done 100% by the graduate students they “advise.”

        Any grad students out there want to out their plagerizaing professors?

    • Trevor

      Jerry… you are clueless as ever on this one. You clearly have know idea what sort of workloads most public university professors shoulder in teaching and research. If you had walked half-a-step in the average public university professor you know how foolish you sound.

  • Steve Plunk

    Colleges have become the ultimate bureaucracies. Filled with different interest groups the administration cannot properly manage the institution in a cost effective manner. With no true employer-employee relationship the inmates are now running what is increasingly an asylum.

    If the clueless governor wants to help colleges and universities he must first establish why their costs are outpacing inflation. Without that answer students and their parents will continue to be taken advantage of. Handing them more money will only make the culture of irresponsibility worse.

    • David from Eugene

      The real first question to ask is whether or not the costs at our colleges and universities are really increasing faster then inflation. Or is this a case of judging the temperature of a room by looking at a thermometer hanging outside on the porch. The most common measure of inflation is the Consumer Price Index (CPI). Changes in the CPI are what is reported in the press as the inflation rate. The CPI utilizes a market basket approach to track changes in consumer costs. Putting aside for the moment, methodological questions regarding the CPI and whether it is an accurate indicator of inflation in an individual consumer’s life, it is not a good indicator of inflations impact on the cost of a University or Government Agency’s operation. Government agencies have different costs in different proportions then those in market basket which are the base for the CPI.

    • giggle guy

      I would be interested to look at the budget of your trucking company and see if it “outpaces inflation”.

  • dean

    “Instead of paying millions to constructions companies to build new stadiums, why not have them fix the buildings where the majority of the students are educated?”

    Let’s see….could it be because donors with deep pockets, like Phil Knight, prefer stadiums to classrooms? And could it be because donors want new things named after them, not old things fixed up by them? I’d say that is a free market decision, not a public spending one.

    • Jerry

      No, it is because fools mix up education with entertainment and the students pay the price.

      • dean

        Are the fools the ones who donated the money or the ones who accepted the donations with strings attached?

      • Cabo Wabo

        Actually, Jerry, there already is a growing movement of people who donate and actually provide for the betterment of the university as a whole.

        For example, Lorry Lokey donated a crunkload of money to the U of O to help build a new underground laboratory for better controlled testing. While he may be the lesser of the people who actually give for academics instead of athletics, it still happens.

        People, when they donate, generally want something with their name on it. I know I would want to have a newly built hall named after me with my chosen major or department as the anchor for the building, and would give money to do it…if I had money.

        • Bo

          If any of us had money.

  • David Appell

    Isn’t it curious that we have $8.5 trillion available, at the drop of a hat, to bail out corporations (many of them mismanaged or who failed to prepare for the future), but we begrudge universities money to even keep their buildings in repair.

    And yet society pretends like it’s most interested in the next generation.

    Jerry, I wonder if you actually know any professors. Few of the ones I know are “underworked” — most are nearly maxed out with teaching + research + keeping up with their field + university duties. Sure, there are a couple of old professors in any department who are coasting their way to retirement. That’s true in any company — certainly in the ones I’ve worked at. But the majority of scientists are working as hard as most people in industry — while making far less money and having far less job security.

    • Jerry

      If they are so maxed out they should find other jobs – oh, wait, I forgot, they can’t. No one would hire them.

      • David Appell

        Jerry, I gather from your reply that you *don’t* know a single university professor, and hence have absolutely no idea how hard they might actually work. Correct?

        • Jerry

          I know several – are the at work today so we can call them and check?? Tomorrow? Next week? The week after???

          • David Appell

            What makes you think that if they are “at work” they aren’t working?

            First, they deserve a holiday as much as you or anyone else. Second, such breaks are often when they catch up on their own research, or reading, or writing.

            The professors I know who have chosen to leave academia seem to have little difficulty getting rather well-paying research jobs in the private sector, often with start-ups and admirable stock options. They certainly aren’t asking for anyone’s pity.

          • Jerry

            If they can easily leave for more money and less work, then why do we care about their current situation? They must love it or they would not stay.
            Enough said.

          • David Appell

            Jerry wrote:
            > If they can easily leave for more money and less work,
            > then why do we care about their current situation

            Because, clearly unlike you, Jerry, some people are not motivated by money or ease, but by their intellectual curiosity, desire for knowledge, and the thrill they get from scientific research and advancing knowledge on the cutting edge. Also, many of them appreciate the opportunity to teach the cutting-edge younger generation.

            These are the same people whose discoveries now provide you with a damn comfortable life.

            I don’t expect you to understand this, Jerry, as you clearly think all people are programmed to merely earn as much money as possible with the least effort. Which is, frankly, a rather sad statement about you.

          • Jerry

            The only sad thing is your preoccupation defending these people. They are fine. They are happy. They are great. As you said.
            End of discussion.

          • Anonymous

            So what’s your excuse for being perpetually unemployed David?

    • jim karlock

      *Hey David,* you said each of the following quoted statements:

      * 1. * “the science is that the world is warming and man is responsible for much of it. This is well-established in the scientific literature.”

      * 2.* CO2 can cause “far more than 0.5 C warming”

      *3.* “if you’re going to damage the climate by burning carbon ”

      Dave, each of these is a definitive statement that is capable of being proven. But despite repeated request, you refuse to provide any proof of their truth.

      Show us the papers to prove your statements are really true and not just mass delusion. Your lack of showing proof tells us that there is no proof and you are acting strictly on emotion – you got sucked in by Al Gore’s second rate SciFi video. Sad, David, sad.

      Otherwise quit trying to scare people in to making Al Gore rich and his Wall Street cronies rich.

      Thanks
      JK

      • dean

        Jim…the first two statements are already proved. The published, peer reviewed work of the past 30 years “establishes” number 1. It is also established that rising CO2 CAN cause far more than 0.5 deg warming. Note “CAN” is not the same as WILL. Number 3 is not a definitive statement.

        You just don’t accept the facts that support the arguments.

        • jim karlock

          Great, Please show us these papers.
          You have seen them — Right?

          Thanks
          JK

      • jim karlock

        *Hey David*, we’re still waiting!

        Thanks
        JK

  • David Appell

    Dean, just ignore JK. He is clearly incapable of independent thought and research, or the ability to research scientific questions. He somehow thinks he is clever by cutting-and-pasting the same dumb old question over and over. It’s kind of sad, really, even pathetic. Ignore him and leave him to his sadness.

    • jim karlock

      *David Appell:* Dean, just ignore JK. He is clearly incapable of independent thought and research, or the ability to research scientific questions.
      *JK:* You are the Phd / Science writer. I am merely asking for you to show us the evidence that you base you claims on. If you think that is “the same dumb old question over and over” then that tels us all we need to know about your standard of evidence.

      *David Appell:* It’s kind of sad, really, even pathetic. Ignore him and leave him to his sadness.
      *JK:* Pretty sad, Dave, you keep making claims and are refusing to show us any of the supposed huge pile of evidence. This is typical of a conman, not a scientist.

      By now it should be obvious to everyone that you have no evidence and that there is no evidence for dangerous man caused global warming. It is merely one of the manias that sweep society from time to time. You know like Eugenics.

      Other manias:
      Tulips
      South Sea Bubble
      Mississippi
      Ponzi
      Florida Real estate
      Dot com
      Housing bubble
      Japan real estate

      They have several things in common, one of which is that no one looks at the evidence, instead they assume some one else has checked the evidence. In fact the ones who claim to have key evidence are refusing to share it and/or the details of their methods. You merely accept what they say.

      Thanks
      JK

    • jim karlock

      *PS: David, we’re still waiting!*

      Thanks
      JK

      • dean

        Jim…you are trying to link a question of science with investment bubbles? Are you confusing your posts? Should we begin to worry about you?

        • jim karlock

          *David:* you are trying to link a question of science with investment bubbles?
          *JK:* Please brush up on your reading skills. I wrote:
          *They have several things in common, one of which is that no one looks at the evidence, instead they assume some one else has checked the evidence.*
          That includes YOU David. You haven’t actually looked at actual evidence have you?

          Thanks
          JK

          • dean

            He who hast no sin shall cast the first stone….Jim…It was DEAN, not DAVID. RE-read the post more carefully and wipe that red off your cheek.

          • jim karlock

            You two are so alike it is hard to tell the difference.

            apologies
            JK

          • Mary Josephs

            Well, roll your eyes and call me Mary, cause I’m without sin and casting the first stone at you, Dean.

            Don’t be trying to quote Jesus when you don’t even think of following the guy, or anything else. Here’s a nice little up-yours from the believing community for being a prick.

  • Rupert in Springfield

    Want to know why the cost of a college education has far outpaced inflation?

    Look no further than a very simple explanation – health care.

    No I don’t mean that health care is forcing tuition, but they both have the same route, a decoupling between the one paying for the service and the one receiving the service. There is not the same direct link as say when you buy a set of tires. College is subsidized in a lot of cases, in others the student is separated from payment though things like scholarships, or student loans. Sure the student must repay the loans, but it is decoupled in the sense that unlike a mortgage, the loans you take out don’t bear a resemblance to what you are making, or even what one could expect to make upon graduation.

    You want to get college tuition lower?

    First, get rid of the notion everyone has to go to college. At current prices, lets say $100K for four years, college is a vocational school. If you are studying something that will not enhance your earning potential, say women’s studies or English lit and you cant complete the basic equation that you will never earn enough more from a degree in such things to justify the loan, you clearly are not qualified for college.

    Second, limit student loans to something reasonable and tied to the course of study. You are a psych major? how about a $40k maximum. Engineering major? how about $100k.

    Third – Eliminate predatory colleges. These are far worse than pay day loan lenders or even evil mortgage banks. I frankly think it is far more wrong to talk some kid into taking out $100k worth of loans to study art history than it does to lend someone more on a house than they can afford.

    Case study – In my day tuition at an expensive college was $10,000, that was the cost of things like MIT, with Bennington being the most expensive college as I recall at something like $12,000. I’m going from memory so my numbers might be slightly off. Want to know what the maximum one could take out in student loans over the course of four years was? $10,000. That’s right, the maximum you could take out was essentially the equivalent of one year at the most expensive school. Sure aint like the old days, and guess what colleges did with their prices as a result?

    • David Appell

      Rupert, no, everyone doesn’t have to go to college. But studies show that those who do earn about twice as much in their lifetime as those who don’t — the numbers are something like an average of $2M vs $1M. Isn’t a $100K investment worth an extra $900K?

      Besides: not all the value of a college degree is financial. There is also exposure to ideas and philosophies and world’s that you’d never learn about if you stopped educating yourself after high school.

      • Rupert in Springfield

        >the numbers are something like an average of $2M vs $1M. Isn’t a $100K investment worth an extra $900K?

        No, because I don’t accept your premise. I do not for a second believe that a women’s studies major, art history major or English major is going to ever an extra 900K with that degree. I also don’t believe that comparing individuals who go to college directly with those who don’t and taking their difference in earning potential as solely differentiated by there college attendance as pretty ridiculous. The two are hardly comparable groups on any level.

        You are taking average figures of degrees of some very flawed studies that’s always really dangerous.

        In addition, if I ever once saw one of those studies that also took into account what that tuition money would earn, if invested over the working lifetime of the individual, I would have some faith in them. Since I never have seen such a thing, there is not much reason to believe in them. Yet another reason to be pretty suspect of those studies.

        >Besides: not all the value of a college degree is financial. There is also exposure to ideas and philosophies and world’s that you’d never learn about if you stopped educating yourself after high school.

        I never argued college wasn’t useful. What I argued is that it is criminal to be loading some kid up with $100K of debt at such a young age for something like an art history degree. You might think exposure to such ideas is worth accumulating that kind of debt load at 21. I don’t. I think colleges have really taken advantage of kids and the fact that their tuition has skyrocketed far past inflation is evidence of that.

        • David Appell

          Rupert, these are STATISTICAL arguments. Of course there will be some college-educated individuals who earn less than some blue-collar, non-college-educated individuals. But the overall statistics are very clear.

          And you have no basis to call these studies “flawed.” If you think they are flawed, show your evidence instead of merely making unsupported claims. The only reason you think they’re “flawed,” as far as I can tell, is that they don’t support your POV.

          How much would $100K earn over the course of a lifetime? Who cares? Hardly anyone takes this bundle and, instead, invests it over the course of their lifetime. It’s far more likely that people would like to go to college but can’t afford it. The people who are not going to college do not have $100K sitting around and say to themselves, you know, instead of going to college, I’m going to invest this $100K in the bank.

          The fact is, nearly everyone who can afford college, themselves or through their parents, chooses to go to college. There must be reasons for that. Besides education, there is exposure to new ideas, new philosophies, interesting people, learning to think, making connections, and screwing pretty girls. Afterward they usually have access to more varied and interesting careers instead of toiling with their labor for decades.

          > What I argued is that it is criminal to be loading some kid up
          > with $100K of debt at such a young age for something like an
          > art history degree.

          So these people should have no freedom of choice to spend their money the way they want to? They’re just as free to become engineers or biologists or economists if they want. Clearly they have other interests, ones not measured simply in pecuniary terms. Maybe they want to open an art gallery (at which a lot of people make a lot of money). Maybe they want to become artists themselves. Maybe they want to work in a museum. Maybe they want to become high school teachers or college professors. If they are happy, who are you to say how they should spend their money? Even if they are unhappy, it’s still not of your business. They’re grown-ups and they and their parents can choose whatever they want for their tuition dollars, for a wide variety of reasons, most of which you do not seem to understand.

  • capor

    I think JK, David and Dean need to be set in a room together for a while to work it out. Grow up and focus on the subject boys.

    I agree that there is a sense in the academic community that there are senior faculty and admin folks who are overpaid and underworked. I know a number of them too. I also know a number of their staffers and grad students as well who will tell you personal stories of their accomplishments pirated by those professors or admin on a regular basis. That is a problem for a different blog however.

    The fact is, there is a CEO and his/her staff responsible at each Oregon university or community college (that has a budget problem) failing to create and follow a real budget. Then there are Board of Higher Education board members that ought to be brought in front of the Oregon public to answer for these travesties of public spending. How does a higher education President get hired and retained without proving their ability to create and follow a budget? How does a budget get created without “Building Maintenance”? How do you overspend some line items in your budget and ignore the critical ones like “Repairs and Maintenance”?
    Maybe more public transparency here would help solve some of this problem too. There is too much power at the Education table in this country without adequate taxpayer oversight. Pretty much the same as any other public sector department we pay for and get little in return from.

  • giggle guy

    Hilarious to see the usual OC crowd bashing the universities, especially Oregon public universities. You have about the lowest paid faculty around, your state has been about the stingiest with the big campuses like UO and OSU. These are the guys who are always the first to trash Oregon universities when they come out middling to mediocre in national rankings.

    No wonder that nobody supports you guys. You are losers who can’t win an election, because you are so full of spite and self-pity. I’m talking about the people who are always complaining about their taxes, always bashing public employees, never coming up with anything positive.

    Some of you guys here are right about stadiums, coaches salaries, etc. UO has buildings with leaky roofs while they build the most luxurious arena in the country. How come? The sports stuff is where the big donors want to put their money. Meanwhile the state stiffs routine maintenance. The university keeps the academic programs going instead of fixing the roof. I’d say they have their priorities about right, I mean the academic people, not the sports zombies.

  • Jerry

    Who is complaining. I think tuition should be double what it is now if that is what it takes to get these people paid what they are worth. Do it now. Then we can fix the roofs, too.
    Double it.

    • giggle guy

      Just read your opening post, the first in the list. You are the worst. You sound like a complete idiot with the nonsense you spout.

  • giggle guy

    The argument about tuiition tracking “inflation” is ridiculous. Why should that be the touchstone for tuition?

    I’d bet that college expeditures are tracking the overall growth of the economy. Why shouldn’t they?

    It’s arguable whether this should be covered by tuition rather than some other means. (Phil Knight, why don’t you donate your money to scholarships rather than wasting it on a fancy arena). But if people have the disposable income, why not spend it on tuition?

    If people think the tuition is not a good deal, go to a cheaper college.

    • Cabo Wabo

      >Phil Knight, why don’t you donate your money to scholarships rather than wasting it on a fancy arena

      Because Phil Knight’s business IS sports and arenas. That’s where his money and his mindset lies. As I said before, he donates because that’s where he wants his money to go. It is HIS money, after all.

      If I had money, I’d donate it so that one of the old buildings on campus (that isn’t historically protected or actually housing something important) could be torn down and something newer and much more sturdy would be able to be built in it’s place. Then I’d request a few departments be moved out of the old buildings and into this new building, so they get the better of all worlds.

      My focus is on academics because that’s what I value. Phil Knight’s focus is athletics because that’s where his money comes from. Lorry Lokey’s focus is on science, because that’s where his money and focus comes from.

      Get a lot more people who care about academics to donate, and you’ll get the help you desire. You just need to find them, first. So start doing it, giggle guy. Time is a-wastin’, and Friendly Hall ain’t looking so friendly right now.

      • giggle guy

        Your beef is not with me, it’s with the fundraisers and president of the university. You are vary naive if you think I can raise money for the university, it is very tightly controlled by the people who are paid to do that work.

        So, if Phil Knight wants to spend his money on sports arenas (and is allowed to by the pres), and if Lokey wants to spend his money on science buildings (rather than tuition relief), that’s their wish, as you say.

        And the result is that tuition keeps going up faster than the ability of some people to pay. Tought luck!

        Oh, and I forgot to mention, the topic of the article, building maintenance continues to be deferred.

        • Cabo Wabo.

          Wow, talk about missing the point completely.

          My point to you was that if you’re wanting to complain about this, then you should make millions, then donate the money yourself to the University system. The problem is not in the university presidents or fundraisers, it is in people like you who think that government should bail out every Tom, Dick, and David in the world.

          If tuition becomes unaffordable, oh well.

          I (frankly) would like the state to kill off half of the funding for K-12, and move it over to higher ed. That way we can piss off the teacher’s union.

  • Jerry

    The tuition is a good deal – that is what I was trying to say before you called me names. Who is the smaller person now?

    • giggle guy

      You called me names in the very first post — “overpaid, underworked, retired at 35” as I recall. Those are personal insults and I take it that way.

      You guys can shove it out, but you sure can’t take it.

      • Jerry

        Wow – a real college instructor. I thought you were too busy for stuff like this.

        • giggle guy

          Jerry — Sometimes it’s instructive for us to venture out into the fever swamps.

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