Is it a War on Women, or a War on Men?

by Rachel Lucas

I recently read an article with a different take on the so-called “War on Women.” The article is called the “War on Men,” and it notes that the feminist movement over time has caused men to increasingly steer clear of marriage and of raising a family. It further notes that women have become angry and have “been raised to think of men as the enemy.”

What’s curious is that these same arguments, that men are bad and women are victims, have remained unchanged from the women’s liberation movement back in the ‘70’s when I was coming of age. Nothing new here – in almost 40 years.

That’s what we were taught when I was in college – that we were oppressed and that men were the enemy. That we should keep our (father’s) names and hold fast to our identities, and that “a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.”  Well, I wanted to be a strong, modern woman and so I enrolled in the “Women’s Studies” program. We read about Mother Jones and Gloria Steinem, and books like “The Feminine Mystique.”

I didn’t even last an entire term. I found the subject matter boring and self-indulgent. All of the women seemed angry and frankly, unhappy – with men, with themselves, and with life. I was just starting out in my own life and I certainly didn’t want what they had. After two months of “studying women” I was cured!

In the midst of the misplaced anger that I found in “Women’s Studies” I discovered quite the opposite – that I loved being a woman; that I wanted someday to love a man as my husband, to take his name and to raise a family together.

A couple of years later, after a few adventures of my own, and at a time I least expected it, my husband-to-be walked into our small church, and soon, we fell in love. That was 32 years and three children ago, and, although I have done and accomplished many things in my life, I can say that my marriage and family are the jewels of my life and true gifts from God.

And yes, I took his name. Just as women have been doing for centuries. As traditional as that may seem, at that time in my life, it was really quite radical. As the feminist movement was just reaching its peak, all of my friends were still following the Pied Piper of feminism. But I was listening to a different drummer – a deeper reality, and the same truth echoed in the article I read – the solution to the so-called war on women, as well as the war on men:

Fortunately, there is good news: women have the power to turn everything around. All they have to do is surrender to their nature – their femininity – and let men surrender to theirs.

Far from being victims, we women are never more powerful than when we are truly and fully what God made us to be!

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  • JMJ

    Couldn’t agree more. In the nursing field, I have worked with women for 20 years. When you try to have an authentic, meaningful conversation with educated women, they look at you like deer in headlights. They are clueless as to how they have driven THEMSELVES crazy, produced untold stressors on themselves, the children, and, (as usual), lastly, their partners. In the end, they ended up with THREE, NEVER ENDING SHIFTS OF WORK – essentially traded their home environment (THAT THEY VOLUNTEERED FOR!), (the “oppressive/paternalistic environment”), for an ever bigger one – THE WORK PLACE. Where they ultimately have EVEN LESS actual decisions over their own lives than had they been running a loving, organized, fun filled, interesting and meaningful life within their own HOME.

    THAT is the place where you have real freedom. But they can’t, or won’t see it that way because I deeply believe that in their inner core, most (not all) women really DON’T want to make plans for their lives. It’s too difficult, it’s messy, it’s fearful, it’s not “perfect”, they might fail, and the ultimate – they “don’t want anybody mad at them.” So they march off like ants to colleges, work places, or worse yet, marry men that deep down they know they shouldn’t, so that they can hide somewhere, somehow, from making thoughtful PLANS for their own lives. And then come the babies without barely giving a thought as to how they will even FIT into their lives. Then the hand off begins. Hymm….where can I PUT these new little people in my life? “It’s just too difficult to have to deal with all of this”. So I’ll just hide at work……..and besides, that brand new home or car or WHATEVER looks awfully good. Too good to pass up….so I’ll tell everyone around me that I “have to work”, when most of us know different. Authentic, meaningful,planning of their lives would be “too boring”. (Yet they expect MEN to “get their act together”). They’ve given great lip service all these years. Millions and millions of words and whinning about their “lot in life.”

    Rarely do they ever try to see the world from their spouses point of view, and accept the FACT that we are so very very different. Do they EVER walk out of their “women’s studies” classes and question, or demand to know where are the “men’s studies” classes? To be able to know MEN’s “inner core”. Not just the veneer that society has painted men to be.

    Of course not. Why give up the victimhood status?

    Instead of running away from the home, as women have done for 40 years, women won’t even stand up in their own homes and demand a thoughtful compromise – using logical, non hysterical, loving suggestions of how to make things better, instead of just abandoning the traditions of home and family.

    I, for one, don’t listen to them anymore. It’s the partners and the children that I silently feel the deepest sorrow for. And yet, I do hold some blame to the men that have ALLOWED these women to walk all over them, turn political correctness into a cult, and together, become “the walking drone couples” that fill millions of stressful, angry and neglected homes across this Country.

    JMJ

    Salem, OR

    • DavidAppell

      Is there a single stereotype or caricature you haven’t bought into? I can’t think of one…. Try looking at people — women and men — as individuals, instead of grouping them into battalions for the culture wars, and you might be surprised at what you’ll find.

      • JMJ

        Response to David….over the last 20 years that’s all I’ve DONE, but look at individuals. Including my own family members.
        I’m not suprised, I’m horrified. The LEVEL of self centeredness that women have sunk to is shamful and destructive.
        And, are there more “sterotypes” or “caricatures”? You bet – I was just getting started. The tragedy is that they are REAL.
        Try working in the medical field for one single year, you’ll find them all there.
        JMJ

        • DavidAppell

          I don’t recognize the women I know in any of the stereotypes you offered. The women I know do their honest best to juggle family, work, children, play, and other interests. They aren’t slaves to some philosophy or ideology or some preconceived notion of who they are supposed to be, and they aren’t filled with anger or hatred, or reading Ms. Magazine to see what they are supposed to think, and they aren’t marching off like “ants” to work — they are just getting on with it through the same murk and confusion as everyone else, honestly trying to balance their various needs and desires and hopes. (Frankly, if anything I think most women are doing a better job at this than most men.)

          • JMJ

            David: COULDN’T be happier for you, personally, that “the bubble” appears to be working well. You may very well have found that rare woman. Thanks for the classic response that is ALWAYS presented: “I” haven’t experienced anything like you are describing….., so, of course, it’s can’t be real.” Thanks for glossing over the reality that women have volunteered for a MINIMUM of three work shifts – “the job”, “the spouse” and “the parent”, “the housekeeper”, it’s endless.

            Do that, and somthing always has to give. USUALLY it’s the spouse (1st) (60% divorce rate, and trending up), and then the kids (broken homes and then the whole “single mother victimhood status”. How would YOU LIKE TO PACK YOUR BAGS EVERY WEEK (?!)and spend “1/2 my time with Mom, and half my time with Dad.” Oh, that’s right…..we’re juggling it all…..

            Do adults REALLY even THINK ABOUT THAT?! All the while, chimming away at their workplace that “my family and kids will always come first”! Such hipocracy! Say one thing, then do another.

            I LISTEN TO IT EVERY SINGLE WORK DAY. You would be appalled to what is said behind “their families” back.

            Think about it: SOMEONE has to give serious, genuine, loving, thoughtful time to making a real home and family. Females have more of a genetic drive in this realm than men. Fantastic. THEN DO IT!

            Why is it OK to “juggle” something that important?

            Because we’ve been brainwashed to think that we can, and that we can do it well. It’s lie.

            Kathreen Hepburn had it RIGHT: You’ve can’t “have it all”. Not when it comes to spouses and small human beings. They DESERVE better that a “juggle”.

            Why is is “OK” to miss, over the years, some of the most precious times with your own tiny or teenage children? Because women have ALLOWED themselves into the delusion.

            And by the way – (this goes just as strongly to the Fathers that ALLOW the children to be “put” somewhere, by the mothers….) How would any parent who hands their children off to a day care provider POSSIBLY KNOW what goes on when that front door is closed and they walk away?! You wouldn’t.

            Why DOESN’T IT MATTER that THAT senario and the worry of it all, takemore PRIORITY than heading off to some work place?!

            90% of “working outside the home” women DO NOT schedule their work AROUND their children.

            If they did – than 90% of the women would have structured their lives and their work places to DEMAND they be offered PART TIME JOBS. The 10% are a rarity. And I champion them for having the back bone to do it.

            Why weren’t they “marching in the streets and throwing off their damm bras” to protest for THAT senario, 40 years ago.” Hell no… they were protesting to get themselves equal pay,as they abandon their homes and children, on their way to work – full time.

            Did they consider putting that kind of ENERGY into making their own homes interesting, organized, fun, loving, or compatiable with their parnters?

            Again – hell no.

            Again – my own family members. Who allowed 7 and 9 year old male children to become the poster children for “turn key kids” coming home to an empty home with make shift “quality time” as Mom walks through the door at 7:30 p.m.

            What kind of energy, concern or stress level capabilities do you think is left from someone who has just worked three 12 hour shifts in a row? It takes an entire day just to decompress. So now there are “three good days” left to give some sort of “quality time” to the family in the week. Why is that “OK”??

            Oh, right, because they are “juggling”. Oh, OK.

            (And – that’s ASSUMING that you even HAVE the 3, 12 hour shifts, IN A ROW….)

            I cringe as I quote our modern day TV Psychiatrist, Dr. Phil, BUT – it coulnd’t be truer…..how’s that workin’ for you families out there. It’s not.

          • DavidAppell

            Again with the stereotypes.

            Life requires choices, and it is better that women have more of them. Better that they have those choices, with their tradeoffs and complications and, yes, sometimes even failures, than that they be regulated to some social structure that doesn’t work for everyone involved (but keeps some men comfortable, or assured, or whatever).

          • JMJ

            Thanks for joining the millions of womens thinking that human beings, be it partners or children, are chocked up to “tradeoffs” or “failures” as a way to justify self centeredness. Spoken like a true Feminist! You do them proud. (I NEVER said that traditional choices should be regulated “for all”. Your words, not mine.
            (and ” I ” generalize?)
            That IS what the Women’s Movement should have been about. Choices for all. But just try having a discussion at MY workplace about women who choose to stay working within the home for a certain period of time…….laughs or back stabbing comments are what you get. I DO NOT call that “introspection” Where’s the “tolerance” for those women who have made the home and family choice, for whatever length of time?
            But that is how throughly brainwashed women have become.
            IF, perhaps you are a guy, you wouldn’t know that. Can’t hold that against you.
            But what I can hold against you are that SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL EXAMPLES, by me, that are again, “labeled” sterotypes.
            I feel bad for you that you are unable to accept the reality of facts.

          • 3H

            And thank you for assuming that your observations are representative of the population as a whole, and for the gross over-generalizations that go with them.

            There are options that you evidently have not considered… such as the husband staying home. Thank you for thinking inside the box.

            For instance: “They won’t even take 5 minutes for introspection of themselves to see what a joke has been made, at their expense.
            Too busy “juggling”.

            How do you know this? Because they didn’t make the same decision you would have?

            You’re letting your obvious anger cloud your critical thinking.

          • JMJ

            They are not gross over generaliztions. They are the reality based on the % of women who work outside the home. The “topic at hand” was NOT husbands who remain inside the home. Stop making it about a topic that is not at issue. It’s apples and oranges. I don’t make opinions about other people by changing the subject because you somehow feel “personally offended” by a topic that isn’t even on the table!

            That you are a man, and are staying at the home, providing all the important functions, environment and work that is done there is great! It’s very good to know that is the CHOICE you and whomever you may be with made that decision, instead of relegating it to a stranger. That’s ALL I’m saying. WHAT IS WRONG WITH WANTING TO BE INSIDE A HOME WHERE PEOPLE CAN HAVE A SOFT PLACE TO FALL AND THERE IS NO CHAOS OR ENDLESS DRAMA AND GENUINE CARING!!
            And, oh boy – here we go again…….ANOTHER classic cliche’ –
            I’m female, I have strong OPINIONS, so therefore “I’m Angry” and have “clouded critical thinking”.
            PA Leeeeeee, you’ve got to come up with something better that that. We heard that in the 1970’s.
            Except all the Feminists did in the 1970’s was half baked “critical thinking” ABOUT THEMSELVES!!
            Please stop with the “anger” arrow, instead of recognizing simple passion for the wasteland of families that are out there. (Did you miss the vision of the Thanksgiving Thursday Night, or Black Friday crowds?
            “Obtaining gifts” for “their families”?) THAT’s what a lot (NOT ALL!) of our families have become.
            Thanks Women’s Movement! And drone spouses.
            JMJ

          • DavidAppell

            What planet do you live on where men or women do not make choices about their lives, but ‘relegate them to strangers?’ It may be true in some countries on Earth, but certainly not the United States….

          • JMJ

            If you had read the sentence more closely, you would have understood that the comment about “relegating them to strangers” was meant for women handing over their CHILDREN to strangers. Because you may not work in, or have conversations with a predominately female co-worker environment, you then, of course, would not hear the comments about where women have placed their children at the day care centers, or, just simply stranger single homes where they admit “I’d never really even met this gal before, but I had to be at work!” “Oh well”. Or, perhaps you have never worked at an E.R. where we DAILY see neglect and abuse of children by women who will not PLAN THEIR LIVES.
            They COULD – they just prefer to live off the State, or men, like parasites. And whether it’s poverty or abdication of responsibility by the well-to-do, it’s all the same – neglect.
            For every pie in the sky “belief system” you have have bought into, about the state of the families in this Country, I can give you three more examples of where you are living in a dream world. Add it’s reaching epidemic proportions. There is still a pretty good % of women who give a damm, but it’s becoming smaller every year.
            Your right – we conservatives don’t have to take it as far as Phyllis Schaffley would like to see things. That was never the main emphasis of my opinion (s). I gave specific, real life EXAMPLES, that few on this comment board want to ACCEPT. The Women’s Movement has done a superb job.

          • DavidAppell

            Your ridiculous overgeneralizations, or inability to understand a POV other than your own, or unwillingness to believe that people do make choices for themselves for perfectly good reasons that are not your choices, are making this a fruitless conversation. Bye.

          • Jeremy Clarkson

            “Because you may not work in, or have conversations with a predominately female co-worker environment, ”

            I doubt David has ever had many conversations with women, or that he has “known” any.

          • 3M

            HA HA HA HA HA… what, are you 12?

          • 3H

            “WHAT IS WRONG WITH WANTING TO BE INSIDE A HOME WHERE PEOPLE CAN HAVE A SOFT PLACE TO FALL AND THERE IS NO CHAOS OR ENDLESS DRAMA AND GENUINE CARING!!

            There is nothing wrong with that. Where that place is, is up to each individual. It’s about choices, and making the best ones for oneself and the others in your family. I get the sense that you see only one path to that goal.

            Maybe that place has mom at home. Maybe that place has dad at home. Maybe it’s at Grandma’s. Or an aunts,or an uncles.

            Feminism is not, nor has it ever been, about making women leave the home. It’s about choices and options. If a woman feels that staying at home is what is best, that is fine because they have made that choice knowing there are other options.

          • 3H

            Have you ever considered that the blank stares you get, and the “deer in the headlights” looks are actually disengagement cues? I suspect you do not hide your feelings very well, and that you come across a little stronger than more people would like in a casual conversation.

            The vast majority of your “evidence” is anecdotal and you are more than willing to assume that what you observe in a few people can be extended to the majority. The picture you paint is rather bleak, and I seriously doubt reflects the reality of what most women experience in their home and career lives.

            You seem to believe that women are at fault, and don’t stop to consider how liberating it can be for both men and women when they don’t have to play stereotypical roles that they may not be suited for.

            No, not every women wants to work and have a career, and many find happiness at home. But many do, and they find mates, hopefully, that can share the work of home and raising kids.

            Your caricature of the feminist movement is about 30 years behind the times. The message may have seemed extreme in the beginning years because that’s what it took to get people to listen, and shock people into thinking outside of a comfortable norm.

            You seem to have a lot of anger and unhappiness in you, and you apparently project that onto everyone around you. You look for the negative, so, of course, you find it. That look you see in other women’s faces? May be nothing more than trying to extricate themselves from a very unpleasant encounter.

          • JMJ

            How predictable that you dismiss specific examples of individual behavior as few and far between snap shots into the lives of women. You don’t bring up the specifics, since you can’t defend the behavior.
            My “caricature” of the feminist movement is a reflection of a “made up” belief system that was presented 40 years ago to millions of women by the truely angry women who couldn’t get attention, or wouldn’t figure out a better way to handle the unhappiness of their lives, except to walk away from their children, spouses and homes.
            I’m not “30 years behind the times”. I am voicing an opinion that for 30 years the TIMELESS qualities of what women can offer to the world has been devalued to such an extent that women can’t even articulate what they have thrown away. Thus, the constant term I use –
            DRONES.
            Your projection of actually believing how, what and where my consciousness lies and how the conversations took place with other women is yet another example of people who cannot defend women’s behavior, so they denegrade the messenger.
            It’s a pity that you are unable to understand the difference of the format you are posting on is a DEBATE forum.
            That you “assume” a woman is not capable of different nuances, different tones of voice, or person to person conversational styles in discussions, than the one presented in this forum, is yet another way to put down woman – AND you can’t even see it, as you type your own words.
            Or, perhaps in your lifetime, you have only met “one dimensional women”, as you accuse me of being…..
            I have probably spoken to, interviewed with, asked questions of, and help treat more human beings of every gender, age, size and conditions of life that they bring to the gurney in one week, than you will ever do in a lifetime. And it’s been done with a smile on my face and a listening ear. Don’t accuse people of made up “imaginings” that you have no possible idea as to what you are talking about.
            Try not to “generalize” a suppossed “generalizer”.
            And try to get a clue about the truely angry women out there who destroy marriages, childrens lives and homes VS those that are passionate women who are calling them out on it. It’s LONG overdue.
            They’ll get no “passes” from me. That’s not anger, that presenting the FACTS. Too bad you can’t handle it.
            JMJ

          • 3H

            No, it’s not presenting facts, it’s presenting your interpretations and packaging them as facts.

            I am sure that some women have made wrong choices… that is an event that happens all the time to both women and men, and has nothing to do with feminism.

            I never accused you of being one dimensional, nor did I imply it. The fact that you are so quick to put words in my mouth, without any supporting evidence, only makes me wonder more how often you put words and thoughts into other people’s mouths as well.

            I never said you were 30 years behind the times, I was saying your view of feminism was 30 years behind the times. There is a significant difference.

          • 3H

            have probably spoken to, interviewed with, asked questions of, and help treat more human beings of every gender, age, size and conditions of life that they bring to the gurney in one week, than you will ever do in a lifetime.

            And I’ll bet that my wife has established rapport, and a therapeutic relationship (in a counseling setting) with more women than you ever will. You see them come through and leave. I’m willing to bet that you don’t have the hours it takes to establish the trust and relationship to truly understand what they are thinking and feeling. What you probably get is what is on the surface, and, sad to say, it is filtered through your world view. They become caricatures because that is how you see them.

            … people who cannot defend women’s behavior…

            Because I don’t see the need to defend or condemn their behavior. They make choices that are best for them and their family. I defend their right to make those choices; I do not assume that I know what is best for them or their families. Unless they ask for advice, and I’ve known them and their situation intimately, I have no opinion of their lives worth voicing.

          • DavidAppell

            Not only this, but if she’s primarily talking to women at her work place, her sample is self-selected, and will naturally be biased towards those who favor women having careers outside the home.

    • 3H

      So, your belief is that they would be happier if they had stayed at home? Not pursued a career?

      • JMJ

        My belief is that women do not PLAN their lives to the best outcome for ALL concerned. If you sign up for marriage and children and tell yourself, and those around you, that THIS is your most important priority – then make an honest person of yourself and take on the obligation YOU HAVE CREATED, by making the outcome the best. It can’t be done with any meaningful quality by this incescent juggling that woman have talked themselves into. You will NEVER get those first 2 baby years back. And why isn’t the 1st words out of toddlers mouths a moment that shouldn’t be missed?

        They are going to be adults for DECADES.

        Some career (where you WILL be replaced in 2-6 weeks – tops) is NOT more important than babyhood and teen years.

        Women ARE smart enought to figure out how to have outside the home interests, but they ALLOW those interests to take over the priority of spouses and children.

        BECAUSE they have not ALLOWED the TIME to FIGURE OUT THEIR OPINIONS, stand by them, take action on them and create loving, stable, fun homes and families.

        Why ISN’T there more fear from women as to WHO, exactly, is passing on the type of values and mind shapping behavior that is enveloping your own children? It’s mind boggling. It’s as if the kids (and even the spouse) are some type of pets, or furniture that you just check in with towards the end of a day, or move around.

        What “female liberation” SHOULD have been about was to impress women that their God given talents are ALL there, ready to be discovered, but at seperate times for seperate issues. That you CAN put a voice to what you want out of your life without being completely self focused that it all HAS to be done RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS MINUTE, RIGHT THIS DECADE, while kids, spouses and family takes a back seat. This constant “piling on” of one more “project”, one more expectation should be met with a profound, & compassionate NO! I’m not going to give myself an aneurysm, a stroke, start taking pills or possibly even develop cancer from the relentess stressors in my life and CALL it juggling. Why didn’t the Gloria Steinem’s of the world teach young women about having logical, informative, decisive, opinionated voices to speak up for themselves, (which for many, DID include remaining in their homes for the first decade, or two, with their families, and maybe just working part time – but wouldn’t put a voice to THAT decision), INSTEAD of the ridiculous marching in the street to MINIC what men do! How ironic – women had to try and turn themselves INTO MEN (marching OUT of the house) before they felt they “could be heard!”) It’s a media driven, narcicissist, impatient women’s clap trap notion that MILLIONS thought “sounded good” over the last 4 decades. Now they are too guilt ridden, (and too hopelessly in debt!) to admit the Women’s Movement has, for the most part, made them nothing more than 2nd income “earners”, who (some, not all) secretly wish for true quality over “juggling”.

        (By the way- just take a moment some day to look up how stress depresses the immune system, AND releases corticosteriods, which makes you lay down fat cells twice as fast!) (And – Is there some explanation as to why breast cancer is 300% more prevelant now?) If women had TAKEN THE TIME to research the true effects of estrogen(massively added, over long periods of time), maybe they would have come to some different conclusions and then different decisions as to why they blindly took all those birth control pills, or, worse yet, estrogen for the hot flashes, over all those decades.)

        • DavidAppell

          Too bad you’re not the King, huh?

          Has it ever occurred to you that women *are* planning what’s best for them and their family? And that they might have ideas about it that are different from yours? Perhaps they see working (full- or part-time) as a financial necessity, and/or as a way for their children to have better lives (food, home, school, experiences) than they otherwise would, averaged over space and time?

          In short, that they do indeed live their lives consciously, and have taken the time to figure out their opinions, are doing their best to stand by them, are already taking action on them and doing their best to help create loving, stable, fun homes and families in this complex world? You seem to think it’s only you who has done (or can do) that.

    • James

      Well I really don’t know where you get the strength to work on that field. I went to nursing school and graduated with honors, I just couldn’t deal with most of the women there, very suffocating. I got the feeling we are not welcome there. Hopefully is different now. Is it?

      • JMJ

        Slightly better. Women are more welcoming. But it is interesting how a high % of men gravitate to the ICU floors, O.R. and Administration. We need far more men to add to the mix of co-workers. Perhaps then we would get far LESS complaining from women about “their lot in life”

        JMJ

  • Ballistic45

    There is an old joke, right after marriage, the bride turned to her husband and says, I want you to always be the same and never change… A few years later after she changed the way he walked, talked, ate, dressed, spent leisure time and a host of other traits, she turned to him and said, you are not the same man I married, what happened to you? The woman’s movement has done similar things to men in general, we have a growing crowd of men who no longer know what being a man really is… Cry babies who can no longer be counted on… Honor and Duty mean less and less to them…

    • James

      Honor and duty for what? To country, screw that one. To Church, the where to fools that sold marriage to the state to beging with, screw that one too. To wifey, to expensive and annoying and a financial and emotional nightmare. To children, they use them to pass laws to take away my money and freedom, so when I see them I really don’t like them. To Americans? This are the idiots who created this mess to binging with. So honor and duty is only reserve to what’s left me and only me, the rest can nail themselves to a wall and get out of my way. I live my life just like the new american women, I only think of myself and myself only and follow their example. It is such I shame I can’t get celebrated for doing the same things women do. But who cares I’ll celebrate myself and that’s enough. It’s too bad that there are men and women who still think they are gonna show us how to men. In other words they are not going to allow men to be liberated because is not good for society. We need to be controlled and put in shame and jail if we do not follow the norm. We must work until we drop dead for God, women and country and don’t protest because some how magically we will not be men anymore. I’m surely quivering in fear! What is really happening is the natural consequences of women being liberated while the men were left enslave to family and government. Unfortunately, conservative obtuse men and women and the government stil refuse to see that we men are liberating ourselves weather they like it or not. If it’s bad for women, children the state, etc, who cares.

      • Ballistic45

        Honor and duty to ones self…. And you just made my point….

        • James

          Well I’m so very happy I just made your point sir. Go analyse the VA hospital wards of our veterans to see if honor and duty and sacrifice was really worth it. Go see the hordes of working divorced men eating ramen noodles for they cannot afford any better. Go see the incarcerated men for owing child support while bankers roam the land and the world freely and unencumbered. Go see the homeless veterans roaming the big cities of this so called free, but surely very ungrateful country who is incapable of any sort of empathy. Then you say we are cry babies for we do see clearly on what side the bread is getting buttered and is clearly not on our side. Oh no, I’m surely wrong, I must commit the ultimate act of stupidity and sacrifice more for otherwise I’ll stop being a man. Really? I’m quivering in bloody fear! Not. You keep sacrificing, and I hope you’ll never end up on the other side of the situation I find myself so very often. Namely, buying food and/or protective equipment to fully employed married and divorced men. Or giving money and food to the homeless destitute men and now increasingly women, that I encounter in these very lands and abroad. However, keep in mind I can do that ALWAYS because I don’t engage in fantasies and dreams that have no true real value to my wallet. Cheers!

          • Ballistic45

            Your anger is obvious, but you still don’t get it.. I’m not talking about anything outside your body, I’m talking about Honor and Duty to ones SELF.. You know the guy looking back from the mirror at you.. The Women’s Movement has destroyed this Honor and Duty in many men FOR THEMSELVES, they look in the mirror and they no longer know who they even are, how then can they have Honor for something they don’t even know any more, how can they feel a Duty to themselves, to fight for themselves and who they are if they don’t even know who they are any more…

            Suicide or total society drop out is the result, some men just can no longer grasp anything within themselves to keep going… I may not be explaining it well enough.. Let me try one more approach. Self respect begets Honor for self, Honor begets Duty meaning to always be true to oneself.. A famous quote “To thine self be true”.. It use to be a man’s word was all that was needed between men.. NOT SO NOW, why not, think about that.. Is the DUTY of keeping your word more important to the one you gave it or is it more important to do so in your own eyes.. And if you don’t know any more, then what? Could it be why we need more agreements on Paper now? When the Woman’s movement began its attack on a man’s self respect then all else begins to crumble with it.. We are seeing it crumble all around us…. How can we be true to one another if we cannot be true to ourselves? We are not the same men as in the 17 and 1800’s nor even the early 1900’s.. What happened in the mid 1900’s, the women’s movement and the attacks on men began redefining who we are whether we agreed or not… Does this make sense, it does to me, it’s the best I can do to explain it…

          • DavidAppell

            I can’t even tell if this is a parody or not.

            A concept like “honor” comes from within. How exactly has the women’s movement (or any movement) undone it, and why (in your opinion) aren’t men deciding for themselves what their values will be?

          • James

            It has not undone it, it’s still there. Its just refusing to be manipulated by outside demands while we look for a better system of true values on an individual basis. That’s all.

          • Ballistic45
          • James

            I’m not talking about something outside myself but within the self for the benefit of individual self wich is what really counts at the end of the day. The pain men feel is a real but necessary growing pains to adjust to the new reality for wich we never got prepared for. And yes what you do say in this last post does make perfect sense. The ultimate person in charge of my life and happiness is me and not some external object or idea imposed by others this being my point. As for the feminist and women destroying honor and duty in men I tend to disagree here to a point. Sure there are the vociferous few, but I think most women during the past decades went through what we are going through now in defining themselves. What made it easy for them was the fact that it wasn’t us changing but them, a luxury we don’t have for they are in perpetual change still wanting to push forward but them backwards but them forward again and so it goes. However that’s what they want and we need to come to grasp with reality and define what is to be a man on an individual basis and not collectively as in the past. Some will say listen to what conservative women and men have to say, some will say listen to what liberal women have to say, I say listen to none and listen to yourself. If that’s what you meant I totally agree, however, when you use honor and duty together with cry babies in your original post it gives the impression you want to throw us men back to the 1700 and 1800 or early 1900. A route I’ll surely refuse to go. Those two words (honor and duty) together with cry babies will bring ex service members very strong emotions based on our perception of what you intend to use them for, that’s the anger you see.

  • valley person

    From this post and the look of these comments, Catalyst really needs to think about forming a mens support group to help conservatives cope, not just with the change ahead, but the change that already happened.

    You poor dears.

    • guest

      VP, deranged.

  • 3H

    There wasn’t every, really, a war on men. If you take some of the more extreme rhetoric, or focus only on the “outrageous” quotes it may seem that way. However, the truth if far different.

    Ultimately, the feminist movement was about choices. If you wish to participate in a traditional marriage (and if you study marriage, you’ll realize there really isn’t such a thing), then that is your right… and your choice. What feminism was fighting against, however, was a pervasive attitude that the women’s place was in the home; that she had to have a man to feel fulfilled that any other track than the traditional wasn’t just wrong, but that it was a threat to the family and society.

    Women can stay at home if that is what they want. They should also be accepted and encouraged to have a career if they want. The movement was so much more than about “hating men”. Hating men was what those who opposed feminism latched on to, to try and keep women from exploring their potential and having options.

    When I got married, I took my wife’s last name. I’m not recommending it everyone, or even anyone else. However, society did not crumble, there were no riots in the streets.

    • nice00

      A sane comment in the midst of insanity. The feminist movement has been tagged as many things if only to create polarization and hyperbole because that creates headlines and news stories. The feminist movement was also about equality in the workplace and home. Some of those issues are still out there – the recent story about the “brass ceiling” comes to mind with female soldiers pressing to be allowed in combat roles because those combat roles lead to greater promotion and pay. This isn’t us versus them. This is about reasonable men and women having these discussions and determining how they can incoporate respect and equality into their own relationships and into society as a whole. No I did not take my husband’s name when I married him mostly because it was inconvenient having to change numerous accounts already established in my name. I asked my husband, “Do you mind if I don’t change my name?” He replied, “No – do you mind if I don’t change mine?”

      • crabman34

        Amen to that. What horrifying commentary this post and the comments from Ballistic and JMJ on the state of conservative thought. Hyperbole and anecdotes masquerading as reasoned thought are par for the course at the Catalyst, but the above takes the cake for dishonesty, cretinous sexism, and outright insanity.

        • JMJ

          Thanks for the name calling. Spoken like a true Leftist masquerading as a Conservative, who can’t or won’t defend the facts. That specific, individual examples are now taken as hyperbole is a real sign of men who cannot even HANDLE the true mess they have bought into, over the decades. Your unwarranted defensiveness is showing, but it was expected.
          JMJ

          • crabman34

            Cute that you learned the word “masquerading” from my post. Shame that you couldn’t read the rest (and still don’t know the definition of hyperbole apparently).

            You are using specific anecdotes and hyperbolically generalizing them to prove some bizarre point(s). I find your views hopelessly depressing and not worth my time fixing. You sir, are simply sad.

          • JMJ

            They are not “bizarre points”. I repeat myself – they are specific examples about specific individuals that you don’t want to hear about. And, hymm, did I possibly detect a slight “wishful thinking” there, in your original response, that you would like to see “the likes of JMJ and Balistic”
            (insane people, in your opinion) not really be “allowed” by the Oregon Catalyst to be even posting their comments? Sure sounded like it. Time to read the Constitution again!
            My comments are Hopelessly Depressing? Of course you would take that attitude. Since “finding solutions to the the problem with our families ” would just be “too difficult” for the likes of you. Looks like I was getting a little too close to the truth.
            I’m “Not worth your time fixing?” Wow. What an elitist and unusual phrase to use about someone you have no idea who you are even talking to. So who is stereotyping now?
            I guess I’d have to get a formal sex change, to get me past my “male sadness”.
            Quite frankly, I am one of the happiest, honest and see- the-world-clearly female human beings your likely to never meet. IN SPITE of working in an E.R.
            You just find it shocking that female “thinkers” are finally calling out women in this Country for what many (not all)
            have become. I work with them every day.
            JMJ

          • crabman34

            Oh brother, here we go again. Why is it that conservatives so often seem to think the first amendment protects any and every words that come out of their mouths from the words of other private individuals? I’m not from the government, so your first amendment rights have no meaning to me. I’ve read the constitution countless times. No where in it does it suggest any sort of prohibition or penalty for my wishing you would shut your mouth. PLAINLY (IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE APPARENTLY THAT IS NECESSARY FOR YOU): THE FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTS YOU FROM THE GOVERNMENT! NOT ME. PLEASE READ THE CONSTITUTION CAREFULLY.

            Though, to clarify, I neither said nor insinuated that your opinion is not welcome on this site. I just suggested (softly at first and then a little more forcefully) that your opinion is bunk. And when I said it’s not worth my time fixing it is because my time is valuable and I don’t feel like spending the time explaining to you how divisive and regressive your view of the world is. Better to just let you stew in it, maybe one day you’ll come out. Lady, you’re no thinker, and that’s why it ain’t worth my time.

            My wife, for the record, also works in a hospital, as a physician, and she struggles with a work-life balance. Along with many of her co-workers, male and female. Maybe the problem with this country and families isn’t that women work outside the home (and apparently some of their families want them to also do all the child-care and housework, but then again that sounds like a male problem not a feminist problem). Maybe the problem is that men AND women don’t get enough support to do what’s right by their families. Maybe if we all got more maternity/paternity time we’d get to enjoy those first two years as a unit. Maybe if the societal safety was stronger and broader we’d have more cohesive family units. But we don’t, so we all work really hard, and have to make sacrifices and compromises and hard choices.

            Laying the blame on the feminist movement is just bizarre, which is what my original (short) post was about. The rest of your points, who knows.

          • 3H

            Maybe if we all got more maternity/paternity time we’d get to enjoy those first two years as a unit.

            *GASP* … you mean like Europe? That’s just not right.. this here is the U.S. of A. Nothing good ever, and I mean ever, came out of Europe. (unless we are talking about Western Civilization and culture, in which case Europe is just fine). You been drinking that French Roast coffee or something?? ;)

          • Crabman34

            No, worse, French wine.

      • Albert

        Well, you sure married a pussy.

        • 3H

          Now that you got that out of your system, the adults would like to continue their discussion.

  • http://www.facebook.com/felesmalas Kay Allen

    But once again men are blaming women for men’s insecurities and expecting women to change to meet men’s wants. In effect saying “aaww the poor little boy, pat him on his head, and tell him momma will take care fo you.” If he can’t deal with a wife and kids – that’s HIS problem. Stop making his incapacity my problem.

    • DavidAppell

      Ka-Pow!! Blam!!! Spla-a-at!

  • valley person

    OK lets lighten this topic up.

    A cruise ship sinks, and on one life raft is 10 men and one woman. The life raft gets a puncture and is sinking. A helicopter comes to rescue them lowers the ladder and all 11 grab on. But, too much weight to raise them up. The copter pilot says one of them will have to let go, and probably drown.

    After a minute, the woman speaks up. “I’ve spent my entire life caring for men and children, feeding them, cleaning up after them, paying for them. It seems all I have ever done is sacrifice for other people. So I will let go of the ladder and maybe drown to save the rest of you.

    The men all start clapping.

  • DavidAppell

    “I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to combine marriage and a career.”
    — Gloria Steinem

    • JMJ

      Because they don’t give birth to human beings.

    • James

      Because we’ve been raised to think of career first and marriage a must do after career. In the end I think men just commit marriage for that is the accepted script, but deep down I at least reject it. Maybe I’m alone on this but I don’t think so. So after several years after marriage I came to the conclusion that I wasn’t happy wIth it and dump it I must. So then the fights, the ups and downs, the leaving for months with no calling or giving satisfactions to wife, hoping shell end it to no avail. So after months of acting like a little kid I decided i must resolve this issue like and adult. I figure I didn’t really hate my wife I actually love here, but how can I shake out her unrealistic expectations she and family expected of me and free myself of it. So on a beautiful bar near our home while downing some beers I told her how Im not god and not responsible for her happiness and she is not responsible for mine. That the idyllic marriage we were instructed to have is over and impossible etc etc. She accepted it but ask me to stop asking for a divorce. I accepted as long as she understand I’m off the hook and she agreed to my surprise. I guess acting like an infantile and disappearing gave here time to think what she wanted to settle for. It’s stuck in my mind for months and upon my return I ask her what she really wanted when we talk many a months ago. She responded to me that she wanted to stay in our home, that I be responsible to our daughter, that I care for her if falling sick and that she would due the same for me if need be, and not to shame her. Everything else I wanted to do was inconsequential for her. I’m lucky I guess, for she simplified it for me so simple, but so simple you can help but love her. Before it was drama and no communication, now is like a simple contract or understanding and no drama or manipulation on my part. She actually let me be myself the good and bad as long as I mind this simple rules and check on her from time to time to make sure she’s ok. My answer to Gloria S. Is that Im really not interested to strike a balance, career is number one and home is to repower. Any other balance I’m not interest. I don’t need to have it all after all.

      Less is more. Simplify.

  • 3H

    So what happened, did Fox have to find a war to fill in the time between the War on Thanksgiving and the War on Christmas?

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