Mayor Daley Thanks Oregonians for Our “Tax Blunder”

Chicago Mayor Richard Daley didn’t wait long to start recruiting Oregon businesses in the wake of Measure 66 and 67 passing on Tuesday.

“I’ve always thought America stands for [rewarding success]. You finish high school. You work hard, go to college and you hope to succeed in life. I never knew it’s a class war””that those who succeed in life are the ones that have to bear all the burden. I never realized that. It will be a whole change in America that those who succeed and work hard [that] we’re gonna tax “˜em more than anyone else.”

Daley said he’s sending economic development people to Oregon right away to start recruiting.

Even before Oregonians signaled that our businesses are fair game, Daley told his own constituents:

“To describe every major CEO in Illinois as fat cats is a mistake. . . . They don’t have to be here. They can go to Wisconsin. They can go Indiana. They can go to India. They can go to China. So if you want to beat up businesses, go beat them up and when they leave, just wave to them, and they’re going to wave back to you.”

Read the entire story at:
Daley wants to raid Pacific Northwest talent


Steve Buckstein is founder and senior policy analyst at Cascade Policy Institute, Oregon’s free market public policy research center.

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Posted by at 03:15 | Posted in Measure 37 | 405 Comments |Email This Post Email This Post |Print This Post Print This Post
  • Anonymous

    Local CPA told Hillsboro Rotary gathering on Weds. that a corporate client and huge Oregon CORPORATE taxpayer was packing up and leaving immediately.
    CPA loses big client, Oregon loses huge taxpayer, Oregon becomes a corporate wasteland.

  • Diamond Jim

    But who is it?
    I am hoping Nike leaves. They should move to TX.
    Now.

    • Anonymous

      Why?

      • Diamond Jim

        Why not??

    • Anonymous

      That you, J? You hope Nike leaves, because you didn’t get your way? You really hate Oregon, don’t you. It’s no wonder you people lose everything. People know that you hate them for not agreeing with you. And so they never will.

      • Jerry

        I love Oregon and I love Nike.
        I only want what is best for both.

  • Ron

    Steve B, Steve P, and Rupert,

    Would sure like to see the three of you comment more in widely read publications like our daily newspapers. You acquit yourselves well and your comments are usually clear, concise, easily understood and reflect the views and beliefs of those of us pouring into rather than drinking from the trough.

    Here you’re mostly just preaching to the choir although better here than not at all. Thanks for listening.

    • Steve Plunk

      Thanks Ron. I’m going to take a leap of faith and assume the Steve P you speak of is me. If it’s not then I’m a giant jackass. Not the first time.

      Steve Buckstein is already doing more than humanly possible. The Cascade Policy Institute is an oasis of sane thought in the desert of failed ideas. Steve and the Institute have my gratitude. I can’t speak for Rupert but I do what I can between running a business and raising my son. I stay involved in local politics and write a guest opinion now and then for the paper. Writing here allows us to share ideas and in a way plot strategy. We have enough liberals stopping by to ensure our game stays sharp.

      Rupert’s sound logic is always a welcome sign when I check in. He has the background knowledge and intellect to make a good case for conservatism. Compared to Rupert and Steve B an amateur like me feels completely out of place.

      I expect this to become a very happening place in the next few months as the fall elections approach. Citizens are upset and we could see big changes coming in Salem. People are starting understand the failings of liberalism and with that understanding comes a shift back to the tried and proven path of conservative thought. Let’s hope it’s true conservatism with a dash of libertarianism thrown in. We need our freedoms protected and restored.

      • Ron

        Steve,

        It’s you and I’ll disagree with “big changes coming in Salem”. The following is a recent posting of mine on the passage of 66 & 67.

        “Until Multnomah and Lane Counties turn red (or maybe just a deep purple), Oregon will continue on the path to destruction.

        I’m sneaking up on 70 years of age and in excellent health and know with certainty it will not happen in my life time.

        Am I sad ? Yeah I am because when I look South, I see what’s in store for Oregon.”

        I’d dearly love to be wrong but I think it will be the next generation to see the change if it ever comes.

    • Steve Buckstein

      Thanks Ron. Actually, you might be surprised at how many people read this blog and never comment. Just like talk radio, most readers are silent.

      As for mainstream media, I’ll be on two prominent radio stations soon:

      Sunday 4-5pm KXL 750AM in Portland on the new Business Briefing show talking about M66-67

      Monday 9-10am OPB 91.5FM Portland and other OPB stations around the state on Think Out Loud talking about kicker reform.

      Speaking of Kicker reform, my op-ed on the subject will hopefully appear in Monday morning’s Oregonian.

    • Rupert in Springfield

      Thank you for your kind words Ron. It’s very flattering that you would take the time to read what I write, let alone comment on it in the nice way you do.

      I think you are right. Here, to a large extent, everyone from my side of the aisle is, in fact, preaching to the choir.

      In that regard perhaps there is not a lot of changing of minds going on. However I think another task can be accomplished. That being showing people how to construct a concise logical argument and hopefully inspire them to reason with those who might disagree with them rather than get into a hair pulling out session.

  • David Appell

    Richard Daley wrote:
    > I never knew it’s a class war

    Daley is either the stupidest American who ever lived or a bald-faced liar.

    (Personally I choose the latter.)

    The rich have always ruled this country. They have never expected capitalism’s rules should apply to them, when they fail. There was no better example than the massive bailout given them in 3Q09-1Q10, where they were given hundreds of billions of dollars in relief.

    Socialism for the rich, capitalism for everyone else. This is the history of America.

  • jim karlock

    JK:Hey David, how do you NOW feel about getting suckered by the IPCC.. You told us that it was peer reviewed, even as it included lobbying handouts from the WWF & Greenpeace as refrences.

    >> They ignore counter data and reports.
    >> They bend the rules to let late papers into their report.
    >> They overly state the case for warming in order to scare governments into action.
    >> They shift a decimal point to make danger seem greater.

    In short thy are a pack of lying zealots bent on enriching themselves at the expense of the rest of the world.

    >> They get funding from OIL COMPANIES and MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS like Greenpeace and WWF.

    The IPCC now has ZERO credibility.

    Why are you silent, David? Are you expecting to make money too? (Or are you a paid blogger?)

    Thanks
    JK

    • David Appell

      Jim: don’t worry: there are errors in the details of all scientific ideas.

      CO2 is still a greenhouse gas. So is methane. Cutting down trees still means the planet will warm.

      If Himalayan glaciers melt in 2035 or 2075 — the same old, 175 year old greenhouse physics is still at play.

      I realize that, because you lack the advanced/college education necessary to understand the problem in detail, all you have to go on is what your conservative Web sites tell you to object about. They lead you around by the nose. You lack the education and nuance to evaluate the big picture for yourself.

      Remember your laughable calculation about the T=f(CO2) relationship on Venus?

      • jim karlock

        *David Appell:* don’t worry: there are errors in the details of all scientific ideas.
        *JK:* It is NOT a detail when a claimed credible, peer reviewed, publication uses PR handouts from lobbyists as a source for projections of the future. Especially when they admit that it was used to create enough alarm to force governments in action. Action which would make them rich.

        That was on top of their top scientists getting caught fitting data to their conclusions, blocking publications of opposing publications, bending the date rules, destroying data and lying to the editors of journals.

        And the head of the IPCC getting caught lying about the glacier story and enriching himself. Oh, BTW, the hired the guy that was the source of the glacier lie, presumably as a reward for a job well done. When do you expect to be hired, David – or are already being paid to spread your garbage?

        Then there are those other independent data sources that YOU keep saying concur with the CRU – now is turns out that they are NOT independent after all.

        *David Appell:* CO2 is still a greenhouse gas.
        *JK:* Now tell us what percent of warming is due to CO2 and what is due to water vapor.

        *David Appell:* If Himalayan glaciers melt in 2035 or 2075 — the same old, 175 year old greenhouse physics is still at play.
        *JK:* This issue isn’t 2075 its 2350 – an error of 300 years. But, as ususal, you refuse to face the real issue: the IPCC included a lobbyist’s scare story to try to force governments into action. That is not a minor detail – it is big time fraud. Too bad you appear to condone such fraud.

        *You told us the IPPC reports were peer reviewed* now it turns out they use garbage from lobbyists like the WWF & Greenpeace. And now we discover the CRU is funded by OIL companies!!

        *David Appell:* Remember your laughable calculation about the T=f(CO2) relationship on Venus?
        *JK:* Ahh, the personal attack when you have no other answer. Ok, I’ll bite: David, why don’t you remind us with the exact quote and what was wrong with it *as a simplified explanation.*

        And while you’re at it explain how much Venus’s atmospheric pressure is different than ours. And how that affects warming.

        And while you’re at it explain how Venus’s Gravity is different than ours. And how that affects warming.

        And while you’re at it explain how Venus’s distance from the sun is different than ours. And how that affects warming.

        As to laughable statements, you are the one that claimed Katrina was caused by global warming.

        *David:* I realize that, because you lack the advanced/college education necessary to understand the problem in detail,
        *JK:* How many peer-reviewed papers have your name on them? How many peer-reviewed papers have MY name on them? Which went through the most rigorous peer-review process.

        *David:* all you have to go on is what your conservative Web sites tell you to object about.
        *JK:* Oh, you mean like SustainableOregon.com? All you are capable of doing is parroting the fraud artists behind the IPCC report and Al Gore’s lies.

        *David:* They lead you around by the nose.
        *JK:* Look in the mirror for you and the liars at the IPCC. BTW, are they sharing any of their booty with you for spreading their lies?

        *David:* You lack the education and nuance to evaluate the big picture for yourself.
        *JK:* Why don’t you explain with your alleged advanced degree, that you don’t understand that a log function rolls off, just the opposite of exponential. (Just to remind you of the context, CO2 greenhouse effect is a log function of concentration. We are on near top part of the curve.)

        Time to get to work – I have to fix a motor speed controller tonight. Something you probably don’t understand.

        Thanks
        JK

        • Steve Plunk

          Jim,

          Your patience with David Appell amazes me. The guy has an excuse for every inconvenient fact you bring up and spins defeat into victory (in his mind). The IPCC and entire global warming cabal has been discredited yet he hangs on to whatever threads of support he can find.

          It’s been difficult to watch as you ask valid question and he flails about without answers. Hopefully these people will admit it’s been politics all along and quit making a sideshow of themselves. Thanks for helping show many us how weak their case has been.

        • David Appell

          > JK: Ahh, the personal attack when you have no other answer. Ok, I’ll bite: David,
          > why don’t you remind us with the exact quote and what was wrong with it as a
          > simplified explanation.

          Jim, I’m not about to waste my time categorizing your stupidity.

          Incorrect calculations are not “simplified explanations.” They are just flat-assed wrong. You didn’t know enough science to even make a realistic back-of-the-envelope calculation. Given that, I see no reason to believe you on any scientific issue.

          • jim karlock

            *David Appell:* Jim, I’m not about to waste my time categorizing your stupidity.

            Incorrect calculations are not “simplified explanations.” They are just flat-assed wrong. You didn’t know enough science to even make a realistic back-of-the-envelope calculation. Given that, I see no reason to believe you on any scientific issue.

            *JK:* You are simply lying again. Here is the original exchange. Why don’t you point out my blunder (please keep in mind that I accurately described this as a “simple analysis”) Also keep in mind it was YOU who denied the log function of CO2, so this “simple” analysis gives a higher result than reality:

            —————- from 2009-03-08 04:18 ————
            *David Appell:* Please explain, under that assumption, why Venus (atmosphere: 96.5% CO2) has such a high mean temperature (462 C).

            If you say that it’s because Venus is closer to the Sun than earth (0.72 AU vs 1 AU), please calculate its solar irradiance and show how this accounts for the difference in temperatures between the atmospheres of Venus and Earth (14 C)
            *JK:* Why bother. Lets keep it simple. Our CO2 is about .04%, your Venus 96.5%, 2400 times as much. Lets give you the benefit of the doubt, keep it simple, and assume all of the 462c (above an otherwise 0c) is due to CO2. That is one degree for each 5 times earth’s CO2.

            By this simple analysis, we can increase CO2 by 5 times for ONE degree temperature rise. This is actually not too far off of some of the latest estimates. This suggests that we can increase CO2 by ten times with little more effect than bringing back the temperatures of the Roman times. If I recall correctly, we do not have that much fossil fuel.

            So, David, are you expecting our CO2 to reach 10-20 times its current level? If so tell us where we will get that much C to react with the O.
            ————- end of reminder for David —————-

            Lets recall some of your blunders:
            You blamed Katrina on global warming.
            You said the IPCC was all peer reviewed.
            You said the criminals at the CRU/ Mann etc were fine scientists.
            You claimed CO2 increases caused a proportional temperature increase.
            You said there was plenty of independent data.

            If you were honest about your arguments, you would have simple, clear explanations for your claims, such as:
            *1.* “the science is that the world is warming and man is responsible for much of it. This is well-established in the scientific literature.”
            *2.* CO2 can cause “far more than 0.5 C warming”
            *3.* “if you’re going to damage the climate by burning carbon ”
            *4.* “today’s CO2 is different – manmade (there’s irrefutable proof of this).”
            *5.* “Global warming is, simply, the most serious and most difficult problem ever faced by mankind. . .This is a sound, definite scientific conclusion, no longer in any real doubt”
            *6.* Global warming increases hurricanes.

            Face it, David, you fell hook-line & sinker for the global warming fraud and it is time for you to admit it and move on.

            Take a hike.
            JK

      • Rupert in Springfield

        Can you ever construct an argument that does not consist almost entirely about an insulting stream regarding your opponents education level?

        It is really a little absurd considering you constantly comment on economic issues, as you did above, and yet you have no real education in economics as you claim a physics degree.

        If you refuse to follow your own advice, that fine, if unsound. That said, it would be nice if you did not assume you are the only person who blogs with a degree in the sciences. You made an ass out of yourself with that default assumption about me. Someone who actually had a scientific mindset would learn from that error and correct it.

        PS – I have a hard time believing that even you made the mistake of saying the IPCC report was a peer reviewed paper. Did you really maintain that was the case?

        • David Appell

          OK course the IPCC ARs are peer-reviewed — they’re probably the most peer-reviewed scientific documents ever published.

          Does that mean every detail in them is correct? Of course not. Peer-review guarantees no such thing, and never did.

          Peer-review does not mean a paper is correct. There are many peer-reviewed papers that have turned out to be wrong. Peer review means a paper adheres to basic scientific standards and is not obviously incorrect.

          Incorrect papers are published in all scientific fields, all the time. The glory of science is that it narrows in on the “truth” over time.

          But let’s note that this particular issue of Himalyan glaciers is far from the basic facts that certain gases are greenhouse gases and that our use of land, etc is warming the planet and acidifying the ocean. These conclusions are based on fundamental physics. Details of all the implications will occasionally be wrong. That hardly means the fundamental theories are wrong.

          • jim karlock

            Peer reviewed???? Give us a break!

            Are the WWF lobbying papers peer-reviewed?

            Are Green Peace lobbying papers peer-reviewed?

            Are student papers peer-reviewed?

            All of the above have been found as citations in the last IPCC report. (You know, the UN’s IPCC science fiction report, just like Al’s flick!)

            Face reality, David, the IPCC is finished and all that is left are the Parliamentary and Congressional investigators followed by criminal trials and endless analysis of how it happened.

            So sad. To think that you could have blown the whistle on this scam over a year ago when I laid all of this out for you by pointing you to the truth at the “skeptic” web sites. (Had you given honest answers to my climate question, you could have realized the fraud a couple years go.)

            Even more sad that you botched your second opportunity to lead the battle for the truth when the CRU emails supported what us realists have been saying all along.

            It is not too late for you to face reality and start writing about the greatest science fraud of the last century.

            BTW,How many peer reviewed papers do you have your name on?

            Thanks
            JK

          • David Appell

            Jim: I have two peer-reviewed publications to my name. (You?):

            “Soft Gluons and the Normalization of the Drell-Yan Cross Section,” with George Sterman and Paul MacKenzie, Nuclear Physics B309 , 259 (1988).
            1986

            “Jets as a Probe of Quark-Gluon Plasmas,” with George Sterman, Physical Review, D33, 717 (1986).
            reprinted in Quark-Gluon Plasma – Theoretical Foundations, Joseph Kapusta, Johann Rafelski, and Berndt, Mueller, editors, Elsevier Science.
            1984

  • Diamond Jim

    I have heard that there is global warming on Mercury.
    Also, remember, you fools, that most of North America was once a giant ocean. How do you explain that?
    The earth cools and the earth warms and there is nothing you can do about it.
    Crazies.
    All.

  • dartagnan

    Let me know when business actually start moving from Oregon to Chicago. Chicago has the highest local sales tax in the country.

  • Morkeeb

    No one in their right mind would move to the Windy City.
    Texas is where it is at you peoples. Or SC. Or TN.

  • PETER L ROGERS

    i am a small business owner, largly unaffected by tax hike, but I am insulted by the vite. i give genourously to my community, as do most small business owners. To be targeted as”rich” is an insult. Oregon will lose thousands of jobs over this, as is Calif. The end result is less revenue to the state and the state will have to cut spending. The average state emplyoee earnes $83,000 a year with wages and benenfits, while the private sector is 30% less. The states business model is unsubstainable. Now they are going after the “kicker”. That will take from the workers. Business doesn’t care abou the kicker, we figure the money gone when we pay our tax. This tax repels capital. next year oregon will border on bancruptcy, like Calif. Certainly nike is moving, as is Hewlett Packard in Corvallis. Wait until those who voted for this can’t find a job. Oregon is the poorest state in the western united States and just got poorer. As for me, I m no longer giving to my community. That money, $150,000 last year will now go to pay taxes, 3% increase from the feds, 2.4% from the state, and the state decided to tax me on the heasth care benefits I give to my emplyees.The remainder will go to my employees. It makes no sense to give to the public, when the public has decided to take more from me than they deserve.

    • LENO SUCKS

      To Peter and all the other small business owners:

      SHUT THE [email protected]#% UP!! Please. Myself and hundreds of thousands of other Oregonians voted NO on Measure 67. The election was lost. And now the sky is falling? All I hear from you punks is how you will no longer support the communities that support you, wah wah waah boo hoo. Go to hell. There were a million votes out there that were up for grabs. If you were so concerned, if this meant so much to you and the solvency of your businesses why the hell weren’t you out there wrangling those votes? We got beaten! End of story. And again, hundreds of thousands of of us voted NO! We are still members of these communities that you so desperately want to punish. What a bunch of pussies you are! What a bunch of petty whiners! I am embarrassed for you. And this guy opens his comment by telling us he was “largely unaffected” by the tax hike. Thanks for nothing.

      No wonder Republicans lose nearly every god damn election. Nobody likes you guys. Shitheads.

      • Steve Plunk

        Wow. Where to begin? I guess by saying thanks for voting no. It’s obvious you understand the basic economics of raising taxes during a recession.

        Now I should ask why so angry at the other people who voted no? Sure, we’re complaining but this a place for that sort of thing. It’s an open forum.

        Many of us were unaffected but we also understand this will put a drag on the economy had have in indirect effect on all Oregon citizens.

        I get up and go to work in a state that is constantly attacking my business and then asking for an ever increasing share of what profits I can produce. I listen to Dems say I don’t pay my fair share while they give away money to people not willing to work hard and public employees who take advantage of one sided labor negotiations. Pussies? Whiners? I’d say we’re pretty tough.

        We lost the last election but that’s the last election. This fall I see a more energized Republican party based in Tea Party fiscal conservatism. With control of the state out of the hands of spendaholic Dems we might some real progress.

        Oh, the nasty language doesn’t add to your point, it just makes you seem immature. That said I get your frustration.

        • LENO SUCKS

          Steve, I am immature and I’ve heard all the “it’s a feeble mind that resorts to…” lectures before. I don’t mean any disrespect, that’s just how people talk where I’m from and I’ve never seen any reason to modify the way I express myself to accommodate someone else’s idea of polite conversation. Etiquette can interfere with truth. That is my opinion. I appreciate you sharing yours.

          I am not angry with “other people who voted no”. Peter said he was insulted by the vote and that because things did not go his way that he would no longer be contributing to his community. I felt the need to respond. He insulted me and every other potential member of his community. We live in a democracy and sometimes things don’t go your way, that is no reason to turn your back on your community. I find his attitude to be poor and disrespectful of those who support his business in the first place. Or could his business exist without its community? Who is really dependent upon whom? Who is the one evidencing a sense of entitlement?

          And you are correct, this is an open forum for people to complain about whatever they want to complain about. But I’ll tell you this, the kind of bitterness I am seeing here is not helping your cause. If you want to win elections in the future you’re going to need people like me, and frankly, I find the bitterness as nasty and repellant as you apparently find my use of language. And if what I’m seeing is the true face of conservatism I don’t want anything to do with it. It’s ugly stuff and I will disassociate myself from it without hesitation.

  • John in Oregon

    Steve’s commentary about Mayor Daley has a strong undercurrent. I have to say I was astonished to find David Appell noticing that same vortex.

    However from his comments its clear our prospective, Davids and mine, are from opposite ends of the blind mans elephant. Which of us is at the end that feels like a rope is an open question.

    Of the three great political machines, the Daley machine, Tammany Hall, and the Pendergast Machine my own families experience with machine politics was Pendergast. My grandfather was informed he had voted and the medium of information exchange was a baseball bat. He then voted with his feet, go west young man.

    Having burnished up his fathers past image its clear that Mayor Daley is quite serious. Neither stupid or a liar, Daley recognized the opportunity when he saw it.

    I do consider the offer disingenuous. A choice to trade in government employee controlled politics for Chicago machine politics.

  • valley p.

    As Chicago native, I tink its a great city. Da Bears…da Cubs….da Bulls. And it gave us Barak Obama. So what if its flat, cold, windy, and paved over.

  • Bennie

    It may not be widely held knowledge, but Recently (about 7 or 8 months ago) Nike closed down all of its management teams for the various countries and moved the departments there. I know of a person that was in the China division (accounting), he was offered a job in China but his job locally here was going away. The entire department was transferred to that country. France to France, Japan to Japan, etc. etc. Only really one department left to move, the Oregon one. I imagine Phil will still support Oregon athletics, but from afar.

    • Diamond Jim

      My point exactly – MOVE and do it NOW.
      There is no reason for them to stay in OR.
      The campus is looking tattered anyway.
      Taxes are much lower almost anywhere else this guy could go.
      It is the only Fortune 500 company left in OR so they may as well leave. Everyone else has.

      • Anonymous

        What should Phil do with Laika, Jim? You’re obviously a master business strategist, so what should he do?

  • Joe

    First, there was the 1% healthcare charge the insurance company passed on to my company last October that I promptly passed on to the employees. They were flabbergasted and I told them to talk to the government. Then there was the extra $30K + we’ll have to pay in unemployment insurance. Then M66 and 67, a little more $30K again. $60K total. I’m passing that on to the employees as well by keeping our yearlong pay freeze in place rather than rescinding it as the $60K is about the 3% budget in place for pay increases. Sucks to be them (me) I guess. I hope the PERS boys and girls choke on it. A’holes.

    • Anonymous

      You’re full of it, dude. M66 isn’t costing your company a dime and if M67 is costing you $30k that means you’re doing in the neighborhood of $30 million in revenue. You poor thing. What industry are you in? Who are your customers? How many people do you employ? What are your margins? Why don’t you share with us the fullness of your suffering?

      • Ron

        Anon, seems to me that Joe can run his business any way he wants and is not obligated to disclose the particulars of his operation to any of us.

        If his employees don’t like the eay they’re being treated, they’ll walk although walking in this business climate might be a dicey proposition.

        Eagle Eye, I’m the first to admit I don’t have the answer on PERS but Oregon is soon going to be another California if the body politic and the unions don’t solve the problem themselves.

        • Ron

          I meant to say……….

          “If his employees don’t like the way they’re being treated, they’ll walk although walking in this business climate might be a dicey proposition.”

        • Anonymous

          Yeah, Ron, he can run his business anyway he wants. I don’t give a flip what he does. My point remains though, none his complaints carry any weight without context. M66 does not directly affect his company at all and M67 could only result in a $30k cost if the company were generating relatively large revenues. So the questions become, “What are your profit margins?”, “Is it a high volume/low margin situation?”, “To how many employees is he shifting the burden? Ten? Thirty? One hundred?” Without the details it all sounds like empty moaning and groaning, and as LENO SUCKS pointed out above, vacuous negativity is not going to win the hearts and minds of the fence-sitters.

          • Ron

            Anon, I didn’t sense any whining, just a statement of how he was dealing with the financial impact of the health insurance tax and measures 66 & 67 on his business.

            He does obviously feel PERS is a prime beneficiary of the barrage of new fees and taxes and it’s hard to argue with that. Their pensions and benefits are the envy of all of us who worked in the private sector.

            Last post on the subject for me…..the last word is yours if you want it.

        • eagle eye

          Ron, I don’t claim to know the answer to the PERS fiasco either. I’m sure it will not be very pleasing to behold.

          Maybe in the future such dumb arrangements will not be allowed to be made, and maybe people will be more attentive — I mean the people who should have caught this before it happened.

  • eagle eye

    The PERS members were responsible for the charge from the insurance company? For the rise in unemployment insurance? Hey, what difference do M66 and M67 make in PERS? None.

    It sucks to be you? But it sounds like you’re passing on all the costs to them (your employees). Are we supposed to feel sorry for you?

    If you think the dumb moves of Oregonians on PERS can be undone, go ahead and tell us how.

    • Steve Plunk

      Cut salaries to offset PERS increases while telling the public employees why. For every dollar in excess PERS cut their pay a dollar. All tier 1 employees should expect such cuts if the state wants to remain solvent.

      • eagle eye

        It’s not that simple, alas, though someone suggested it here. Much of the increased PERS contributions are going to pay for the already retired — I don’t know the fraction, but those people no longer have salaries to cut.

        Also, ALL public employees are being “charged” to pay for the PERS Tier 1 fiasco — not just the Tier 1 employees themselves. I suppose it might be possible to think about shifting all the costs to the Tier 1 employees. But that wouldn’t solve the problem of the already retired.

        Plus, it’s not just a matter of “telling” the employees. Aside from possible legal problems, you would have to get the unions to “agree”. It will never happen, at least not until most of the Tier 1 workers are all retired and gone to the next world. But that is not for a long time, the youngest Tier 1 workers must be in their mid-30’s.

        Dream on about this, but better to hope that the stock market picks up and the problem doesn’t get as bad as it might.

        • Steve Plunk

          Eagle, you asked for an answer and I gave one. Government must man up to the unions and decrease pay to compensate for PERS. Easy or simple? No. Necessary? Yes.

          The problem has long been government negotiators not getting the best deal for the taxpayers. The result of such malfeasance is the PERS mess we have and public employees making well over what private sector workers make. This is the coming class war, private versus public.

          • eagle eye

            Talk of “class war” between public and private is going to get nobody anywhere, except where we are now, but more of it. It’s not going to win any battles in Oregon.

            You gave an answer, but it doesn’t begin to address the problems I brought up. For example, there here is no way current employees are going to pay for the PERS benefits of the already retired.

            You could fire all the currently employed Tier 1 employees. Still, you’d be left with the obligations to the PERS accounts of the retired, and in fact, to the accounts of the employees you just fired.

            The unions may end up having to eat a good deal of stuff, but so will the rest of Oregon populace.

  • John in Oregon

    Hi JK

    David is becoming very predictable isnt he? Just a small error here and there, no big deal.

    But then you and I both know that IPCC author Murari Lal admitted knowing the glacier claim was false when it was inserted into the fourth assessment report. Lal explained that “We thought that if we can highlight it, it will impact policy-makers and politicians and encourage them to take some concrete action.” I’m not sure how that can be called an error, let alone a small one.

    Did you notice the latest The London Times report? “The chairman of the leading climate change watchdog was informed that claims about melting Himalayan glaciers were false before the Copenhagen summit, The Times has learnt… Rajendra Pachauri was told that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change assessment that the glaciers would disappear by 2035 was wrong, but he waited two months to correct it.” So the retraction was delayed until after Copenhagen. Interesting

    But to give Pachauri credit the 4th assessment does contain other glacier “evidence”. The IPCC also cited magazine articles, like the one from Climbing Magazine, issue 208.

    JK I assume you also saw this item from The Daily Mail. “The Information Commissioner’s office in Great Britain [after investigating the climategate Emails] has ruled that the East Anglia scientists who are at the heart of the global warming scandal acted illegally when they deleted emails rather than produce them in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.” The scientists won’t be jailed because the law has a six-month statute of limitation which is expired.

    It seems the two more prolific sources in the IPCC 4th assessment report are the World Wildlife Federation and Greanpeace.

    As you point out JK, David Appell to the contrary notwithstanding, the issue is the manipulation of data for purposes of political power. The problem is not just some small data error.

  • John in Oregon

    I have to speak in defense of several business people that have commented here. We tend to overanalyze sometimes so we tend to respond that M66 or M67 or some other detail won’t hurt them.

    Business people are talking about the general business climate which frankly is atrocious in Oregon. Our businesses are pressed on one side by shrinking sales and thin margins. On the other by Government regulation and taxation. And the latest tax changes target every business in survival mode with tax assessments of up to $100,000 even if the business is just able to pay it’s bills and employees. Startups and companies in survival mode, exactly the companies that need to be punished.

    Consider the commercials in favor of the tax hike. They pounded home over and over again that evil business only paid $10. Lets get those evil fat cat bankers and credit card companies.

    My wife likes to put a happy face on things. They won’t or can’t leave so its not so bad. I could have said that was what New York and California said.

    Consider Wilco with $180 million in sales and $300,000 in profits. Wilco survives because last summer when the tax was passed they took steps to remain marginally profitable. That meant laying off 12 people last summer. And it means paying $100,000 to stay in business. Thirty percent for the privilege of the State of Oregon to allow them to continue to exist.

    Oregon changed Wilco’s behavior. That is really the major take away here. Even if they don’t leave business will operate defensively. A major business segment is tax accounting and tax law. Companies implementing tax and regulation avoidance simply to survive. I don’t think we have a real clue what the unintended consequences will be. Anyone want to bet they will be good?

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