Executive Club: John Charles

john_charlesKeynote: John Charles, President of Cascade Policy Institute
Executive Club Meeting
700p.m.  Wed. Mar. 2nd
Portland Airport Shilo Inn

Topic: What’s behind Oregon’s coal battle in the Legislature

John used to walk on the dark side, with the Oregon Environmental Council. Director for 17 years.  He knows how this works, from the leftie point of view.  Prolific writer, digger for detail, with a wit to match.  Why is “renewable power” so tough? The wind don’t always blow, and the sun don’t always shine. Renewables require backup, and Surprise! That makes your power more expensive!

Wrap up the deliberate ignoring of existing hydro — maybe they want that gone, next? — with the false reasoning for it all, the data-denying concept of “man-made” climate change, and it looks like the last push to turn off the lights in Oregon.

Got your cave staked out?

Then roll a rock in front of the door, and join us Wednesday night, March 2nd.
John is smiling because he knows where the bodies are buried, and he’s bringing a shovel.

 

 

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Posted by at 04:55 | Posted in Uncategorized | 35 Comments |Email This Post Email This Post |Print This Post Print This Post
  • DavidAppell

    “Why is “renewable power” so tough? The wind don’t always blow, and the sun don’t always shine. Renewables require backup, and Surprise! That makes your power more expensive!”

    And fossil fuel power plants go down for maintenance. They require backup, and Surprise! That makes your power more expensive!

    • Gardenhomeboy

      Surprise the coal deal won’t really reduce carbon emissions from the US.
      Surprise the deal will stick ratepayers with the costs only benefiting PGE and PacifiCorp.
      Surprise wind and the hydro system don’t get along, could force BPA to spill or otherwise disrupt sensitive ecosystems along the Gorge.
      Surprise Oregon can do nothing to solve global climate change. To supply just OR with enough solar and wind power to meet energy demand would require us to triple or quadruple the amount of wind farms and solar farms. Where is the land gonna come from? Where is the grid connection going to come from? What about the Birds and the Bats being sliced to shreds?
      The gorge electric system is/almost is tapped out without substantial grid upgrades that would also be required if they build elsewhere.

      • DavidAppell

        Of coures it reduces US carbon emissions: Oregonians will no longer be emitted about 500 MW’s worth of CO2.

        Oregon just did something big towards the solution of global warming. And there is plenty — plenty — of land to quadruple wind and solar farms. Those who own those lands will be getting nice checks for renting their land out.

        • Gardenhomeboy

          David, Where is the proof that the energy produced won’t be sold elsewhere? Do you have it?
          You say Oregonians will stop, but will that mean nobody else will make up for our reduction? Will the coal just get cheaper and be sent abroad and thus turn into China’s/India’s/whoever’s emissions?

          So you are cool jacking with the grid and causing the dams to harm the river ecosystems?

          Also Oregon produces around one tenth of one percent of global emissions. Aint gonna do much.

          • DavidAppell

            Assume you live close to Utah.

            If Utah stopped using power produced from coal, would you decide to suddenly use more electricity?

            If so, why?

          • Gardenhomeboy

            Not the proper assumption. Assume you are an energy utility, coal is now cheaper to purchase than natural gas or other energy sources, You will probably use more coal relatively speaking.

            Assume you are a developing nation building more coal plants or say some have extra potential capacity, you find coal prices are cheaper, you will likely use more coal relative to other fuels.

          • DavidAppell

            But coal ISN’T cheaper than natural gas!!! That’s precisely why so many coal plants are shutting down (on their own).

            “Utilities Cut Coal Use Amid Clean Power Plan Fight,” Climate Central, 3/4/16
            https://www.climatecentral.org/news/utilities-cut-coal-use-amid-clean-power-plan-fight-20105

          • Gardenhomeboy

            https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/update/resource_use.cfm Not necessarily, David. It depends on where and when. Anyway, Natural gas has its own environmental issues associated with fracking etc. So you may advocate for NG but it has costs too that are different than coal

          • DavidAppell

            And you avoided the question: if a neighboring state decided to stop using coal power, why would you decide to start using more electricity?

          • Gardenhomeboy

            No you misunderstand, it isn’t about using more energy in Utah, its about where that energy comes from, David. Noone claimed people would use more energy. But you missed my point about international demand.

          • DavidAppell

            So then you agree that if Oregon uses no coal power, and “no one claimed people would use more energy,” then OR’s decision not to use coal power reduces CO2 emissions, and SO2, mercury, and all the other vile things burning coal emits.

          • Gardenhomeboy

            No, because other energy utilities may experience lower prices for coal and thus decide to use more coal to produce electricity. This is both national and international. Oregon dones’nt use much coal anyway relative to other states. I agree coal is bad but I also agree that fast food is bad, I don’t want to ban them. We shouldn’t subsidize coal by allowing the pollution but I also think that a national policy such as a carbon tax/pollution tax is the best option. Oregon is already a national leader in renewable energy. This policy doesn’t do anything to stop global warming, it will raise energy prices for people struggling to earn a living in the state. We should be focusing on making Oregon more economically competitive at this time. Oregon has done a lot to make its economy less competitive the last few legislative sessions.

      • DavidAppell
        • Gardenhomeboy

          Trading one bird killer for another is still killing birds. If we were to actually rely on wind as our major energy source on the same level we do coal then it would likely still kill a shit load of birds and bats. Lol

          • DavidAppell

            You misunderstand: fossil fuels killed about 100 times as many birds as do wind and solar.

            And if you looked at the second link, it shows bird deaths per unit of energy produced. Fossil fuels kill about 300 times more birds than do wind and solar, per unit of energy produced.

          • Gardenhomeboy

            The second link must be wrong because I see nothing about avian death or birds at all, just deaths. It also says that nuclear is the best energy by this metric. Too bad oregonians hate nuclear.

          • DavidAppell

            The second chart is deaths per unit of energy produced. That shouldn’t be hard for anyone to understand.

          • Gardenhomeboy

            You said it was birds, it is doesn’t even say what deaths it is talking about.

          • DavidAppell

            Can you not even read the chart’s title and header???

          • Gardenhomeboy
          • DavidAppell

            Re: nuclear. Can we bury the waste in your town?

          • Gardenhomeboy

            ever heard of reprocessing? no? sorry

          • jmac

            lol

          • jmac

            #facepalm

      • DavidAppell

        Coal should go even BEFORE considerations of climate change — it’s that bad.

        • Gardenhomeboy

          Oregon doesn’t contribute much to coal pollution. focus your efforts where it is the worst. why harm our economy for a problem we don’t really contribute too much too.

  • DavidAppell

    I doubt John Charles will dare mention the huge negative externalities of fossil fuels, especially coal power plants.

    The EPA found that Obama’s Climate Action Plan saves $7-10 for every $1 in costs.

    https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents/20140602fs-important-numbers-clean-power-plan.pdf

    The Clean Air Act has already saved Americans $22 trillion in health care costs:

    “How the Clean Air Act Has Saved $22 Trillion in Health-Care Costs,” Alan H. Lockwood, The Atlantic 9/7/12.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/how-the-clean-air-act-has-saved-22-trillion-in-health-care-costs/262071/

    Will any of these costs and savings be factored into John Charles’ thinking?

    • jmac

      Well, we can’t exactly expect my monopoly corporations of choice to “internalize” those costs, can we?

      See, the rest of y’all get to pay all the external medical and environmental costs of pollution like mercury, water degradation and greenhouse gases that is going to affect the rest of you guys.

      If my monopoly corporations of choice had to “internalize” those external costs, it would make it possible to compare and contrast the true cost of every product in our food and energy system. Who would want that?

      That’s why it’s necessary for corporate socialism. If the corporations had to pay for all that I couldn’t get cheap food imported from wherever to Wal-Mart, and then somebody else would come along with a better way and drive my corporations out of business. Maybe even somebody local. What a mess that would be. Wal-Mart may even be replaced and all that money I spend there, would stay in local economy. What a pickle, what a pickle.

      /snark

    • Connie Kosuda

      doubtful / and great questions.

  • FNLED

    John Charles.
    Committed supporter of Corporate Socialism.

    • Roger Enout

      D’oh your smoking drawers reeking of MJ and Appell Pan Doobie.

      • FNLED

        All right wing Authoritarians use a photo of a Hemp plant that, the American Founding Fathers revered, as a pejorative.

        You just identified yourself as a silly Authoritarian.

        You proud?

        • Roger Enout

          FNLED, You smell wuss than a Monica L. Cigar dipped in a Jar-Jar of Slick Willy bull semen.

        • Roger Enout

          Knot of you, brain drained of logical conclusion derrière airing from what’s left of UW, ewe shillgrim.

          • FNLED

            Incredibly inane and impotent.

            You are simply an Authoritarian punk.

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